How Anthropic’s product team moves faster than anyone else | Cat Wu (Head of Product, Claude Code)

I think it is very hard to be the right amount of AGI pilled. It's very easy to build the product for the super AGI strong model.

我觉得要对 AGI 保持恰到好处的信念程度是很难的。为超强 AGI 模型打造产品其实很容易。

The hard thing is figuring out for the current model, how do you elicit the maximum capability?

难的是针对当前的模型,如何最大限度地激发它的能力。

I've never seen anything like the pace you folks at Anthropic are shipping at.

我从没见过像你们 Anthropic 这样的发布速度。

We want to remove every single barrier to shipping things. The timelines for a lot of our product features have gone down from 6 months to 1 month and sometimes to even one day.

我们希望移除所有阻碍产品发布的障碍。很多产品功能的开发周期已经从 6 个月缩短到 1 个月,有时甚至只需要一天。

You're interviewing hundreds of PMs and you just keep feeling like they're approaching it very incorrectly.

你面试了几百个 PM,总觉得他们的思路很不对。

The PM role is changing a lot. It's changing really quickly. The thing that is extremely important for building AI native products is iterating so quickly, figuring out a way for you to actually launch features every single week.

PM 这个角色正在发生很大的变化,而且变化非常快。打造 AI 原生产品最重要的是快速迭代,想办法做到每周都能发布新功能。

What do you think are the emerging skills PMs need to develop?

你认为 PM 需要培养哪些新兴技能?

It comes back to product taste.

归根结底还是产品品味。

Becomes much cheaper to write, the thing that becomes more valuable is deciding what to write.

当写代码变得更便宜时,更有价值的就是决定写什么。

Today my guest is Kat Woo, head of product for Claude Code and Co-work at Anthropic.

今天的嘉宾是 Kat Woo,她是 Anthropic 公司 Claude Code 和 Co-work 的产品负责人。

Kat is at the center of everything that is changing in AI and product and building.

Kat 正处于 AI、产品和开发领域所有变革的中心。

And she and her team are building the product that is most changing the way that we all build our products.

她和她的团队正在打造一款产品,这款产品正在深刻改变我们所有人构建产品的方式。

She is so full of insights and wisdom and lessons.

她有太多的洞察、智慧和经验可以分享。

This is an episode you cannot miss.

这期节目你绝对不能错过。

Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennyspodcast.com for an insane set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers.

在正式开始之前,别忘了访问 lennyspodcast.com,那里有专门为 Lenny 新闻订阅用户提供的超值优惠。

With that, I bring you Kat Woo.

接下来,让我们欢迎 Kat Woo。

Kat, welcome to the podcast.

Kat,欢迎来到播客。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢邀请。

I have so many questions. I'm so excited to have you on this podcast.

我有好多问题想问。很高兴你能来做客。

I want to start with giving people an understanding of your role alongside

我想先让大家了解一下你和 Boris 的分工。

Boris, everybody knows Boris. His episode is the number one most popular episode on this podcast. No pressure.

Boris 大家都知道。他那期节目是这个播客最受欢迎的一期。没有压力哈。

He created Claude Code. He leads the team, ships a bazillion PRs a day from his phone.

他创建了 Claude Code,领导团队,每天用手机就能提交无数个 PR。

I don't even know what the number is anymore. I think people don't give you enough credit for the success that Claude Code has had and co-work and all the things you all are building.

我都不知道现在具体数字是多少了。我觉得大家对你在 Claude Code、Co-work 以及你们团队所有成就中的贡献认可得还不够。

Help us understand your role on the team, how you work with Boris, how you split responsibilities, just like what does the PM role look like on the Claude Code team?

能跟我们讲讲你在团队中的角色吗?你和 Boris 如何协作,如何分工,PM 在 Claude Code 团队是什么样的?

I feel very lucky to work with Boris. He's been an amazing thought partner. He's our tech lead.

能和 Boris 共事我感到很幸运。他是个很棒的思想伙伴,也是我们的技术负责人。

He's very much the product visionary and he is great at setting like this is what the product needs to be in three months, six months from now. This is what the AGI pill version of the product is.

他非常擅长产品愿景规划,能够清晰地设定产品在三个月、六个月后应该是什么样子,以及最终 AGI 版本的产品形态。

And a lot of my role is figuring out okay what is the path from where we are today

而我的主要职责是弄清楚如何从当前状态

To like that vision 3 to 6 months from now. And I spend more of my time on the cross functional, so making sure that our marketing team, sales team, finance, capacity, etc. are like bought in on the plan and that we're all rowing in the same direction and that once the feature is ready that there aren't any blockers to shipping it.

一步步实现三到六个月后的愿景。我把更多时间花在跨职能协调上,确保市场、销售、财务、产能等团队都认同这个计划,大家朝着同一个方向努力,并且在功能准备好后不会有任何阻碍发布的因素。

I think in many ways it works well because we kind of like mind meld, but it is actually like remarkably blurry of a line. Like I think we're like 80% mind melded and then there's like this 20% of things that like maybe I care a lot more about than him. So like I'll drive those and then like 20% where he cares a lot more than me and he just like drives those.

我觉得这种合作方式很有效,因为我们在很多方面想法一致,但实际上分工界限确实很模糊。大概 80% 的事情我们想法一致,剩下 20% 可能是我比他更在意的事情,那我就来推动;另外 20% 是他比我更在意的,他就自己去推动。

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Vercel, Replit, Sierra, Clay and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by WorkOS. If you're building a product

本期节目由本季冠名赞助商 WorkOS 为您呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家成功公司有什么共同点?它们都在使用 WorkOS。如果你在开发

For the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies.

面向企业的产品,你一定体会过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志等大公司要求的功能有多痛苦。

WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS.

WorkOS 把这些交易障碍变成了即插即用的 API,提供专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台。

Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with WorkOS.

我投资的每一家开始向上拓展市场的初创公司,最后都会选择 WorkOS。

And that's because they are the best.

因为他们就是最好的。

Whether you are a seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unblocking growth.

无论你是种子轮创业公司想要拿下第一个企业客户,还是独角兽公司在全球扩张,WorkOS 都是实现企业级就绪、解锁增长的最快路径。

It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features.

它本质上就是企业功能领域的 Stripe。

Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions.

访问 workos.com 开始使用,或者直接去他们的 Slack,那里有真正的工程师随时解答你的问题。

WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience.

WorkOS 让你通过友好的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验更快地构建产品。

Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise-ready today.

访问 workos.com,让你的应用今天就具备企业级能力。

Something that you shared actually before we started recording is the fact that you're interviewing hundreds of PMs all the time.

你在录制前分享的一个情况是,你一直在面试大量的产品经理。

Like if I had a nickel every time someone asked me for an intro to someone at Anthropic to go work at Anthropic as a PM, I'd have 30 billion in ARR.

如果每次有人让我介绍 Anthropic 的人帮他们去那里做产品经理,我能拿到五美分的话,我现在就有 300 亿年收入了。

It's just like the number one place people want to go work at. So I can only imagine how many PMs you're interviewing.

这就是大家最想去工作的地方。所以我能想象你要面试多少产品经理。

You told me that you're just seeing people doing it wrong, the way they're approaching what they think it takes to be a successful AI PM.

你告诉我,你看到很多人做错了,他们对成为成功的 AI 产品经理需要什么的理解有偏差。

Talk about what you're seeing and what people need to understand about what it takes to be successful these days.

说说你观察到了什么,以及大家需要理解当下成功需要具备什么。

I think before AI, technology shifts were a lot slower. So you could plan on the 6 to 12 month time horizons.

我觉得在 AI 之前,技术变革的速度要慢得多。所以你可以按照 6 到 12 个月的时间跨度来规划。

And because you were shipping features at a bit of a slower rate, there was a lot more emphasis on coordinating with all

而且因为功能发布的节奏比较慢,需要花很多精力去协调所有

The other partner teams to make sure that they're shipping features that unblock your features because code at that time was very expensive to make.

合作团队,确保他们发布的功能能为你的功能扫清障碍,因为那时候写代码的成本非常高。

I think now with AI and with how much that has accelerated engineering and with how quickly the model capabilities are improving, the timelines for a lot of our product features have gone down from 6 months to one month and sometimes to one week or even one day.

但现在有了 AI,工程开发速度大大加快,模型能力提升也很快,很多产品功能的开发周期已经从 6 个月缩短到一个月,有时候是一周甚至一天。

And with that, we actually need to make sure that products ship quite quickly.

在这种情况下,我们实际上需要确保产品能够非常快速地发布。

And what that means is as a PM, there should be less emphasis on making sure that you're aligning your multi-quarter roadmaps with your partner teams and more emphasis on okay, how can we figure out the fastest way to get something out the door?

这意味着作为产品经理,应该少花精力去对齐多季度路线图,而是更多地思考:我们怎样才能最快地把东西推出去?

How can we figure out how to make a concept corner of our product suite where an engineer has an idea or a PM has an idea and by the end of the week we are able to get it into our users' hands.

我们怎样才能在产品套件中建立一个概念试验区,让工程师或产品经理有了想法后,在一周内就能把它交到用户手中?

I think the PMs who do the best on AI native products are the ones who can figure out how can I shorten the time from having this idea to actually getting the product in the hands of users and help define what are the most important tasks that need to work out of the box for my product.

我认为在 AI 原生产品上做得最好的产品经理,是那些能够缩短从产生想法到真正把产品交付用户手中这段时间的人,并且能帮助明确哪些是产品必须开箱即用的最重要任务。

So what I love about this is what you're saying is just like people haven't grasped how fast they need to move and how much of the job now is just moving, is helping the team move fast.

我特别喜欢你说的这点——人们还没有意识到他们需要以多快的速度行动,以及现在这份工作有多大程度上就是关于推进,帮助团队快速前进。

What helps do that? What do you do? What does your PM team do to help them move this fast other than have access to the most advanced models?

那么如何做到这一点呢?你们具体怎么做?除了使用最先进的模型之外,你的产品经理团队还做了什么来帮助他们如此快速地推进?

I think the first thing is to set clear goals because LLMs are so general that actually creates a lot of ambiguity in who we're building for, what problems we're trying to solve, what the top use cases are.

我认为首先要设定清晰的目标,因为大语言模型太通用了,这实际上会在我们为谁构建、要解决什么问题、最重要的用例是什么这些方面造成很多模糊性。

And so I think a great PM is able to say, okay, our key user is professional developers, the main

所以我认为优秀的产品经理能够明确说出,好的,我们的核心用户是专业开发者,主要的——

The problem that we want to solve for this feature is maybe there's like too many permission prompts and people are feeling fatigue.

我们想通过这个功能解决的问题可能是权限提示太多,用户感到疲劳。

And like the use case is we want professional developers at enterprises to safely get to zero permission prompts.

而用例就是我们希望企业中的专业开发者能够安全地实现零权限提示。

And that actually sets a pretty clear goal because it rules out a lot of potential approaches for reducing permission prompts so that people can get a lot more done with one prompt.

这实际上设定了一个相当清晰的目标,因为它排除了很多减少权限提示的潜在方法,这样人们就能用一个提示完成更多工作。

And then I think the second thing that's very important is figuring out some repeatable process for getting these features shipped.

然后我认为第二件非常重要的事情是找到一个可重复的流程来发布这些功能。

So for Cloudcode what we do is we actually ship almost all of our features in research preview.

对于 Cloudcode,我们的做法是几乎所有功能都以研究预览版的形式发布。

We clearly brand this when we ship something so that users know that this is an early product.

我们在发布时会清楚地标注这一点,让用户知道这是一个早期产品。

This is just an idea, this is just something that we're trying to get feedback on and iterating on, and that this might not be supported forever.

这只是一个想法,只是我们想要获取反馈并迭代的东西,而且这可能不会永久支持。

And what this does is it

这样做的效果是——

It reduces our commitment for shipping something. We can just get something out in a week or two.

它降低了我们发布某个功能的承诺。我们可以在一两周内就把东西推出去。

And then the third thing that a PM should do is help create the framework for the team so that they know when to pull in cross-functional partners and what those cross-functional partners' expectations are.

产品经理应该做的第三件事是帮助团队建立框架,让他们知道何时引入跨职能合作伙伴,以及这些跨职能合作伙伴的期望是什么。

So for example, we have a really tight process between engineering, marketing, and docs.

比如,我们在工程、市场营销和文档之间有一个非常紧密的流程。

So when engineers have a feature that they feel is ready and that we've dogfooded internally, they post it in our Evergreen launch room.

当工程师有一个他们认为已经准备好并且我们内部已经试用过的功能时,他们会把它发布在我们的 Evergreen 发布频道里。

And then Sarah, who leads our docs, and Alex, who leads PMM, and Tar and Lydia on DevRel, just jump in and can turn around the marketing announcement for it the very next day.

然后负责文档的 Sarah、负责产品市场营销的 Alex,以及开发者关系团队的 Tar 和 Lydia 就会介入,第二天就能完成营销公告。

And because we have this really tight process, it lowers the friction for any engineer to ship something, and PM is the role that should be setting this up.

正因为我们有这个非常紧密的流程,它降低了任何工程师发布功能的摩擦,而产品经理就是应该建立这个流程的角色。

How do PRDs fit into this? The fact that you said that goals are a really—

产品需求文档在这里面是怎样的定位?你刚才说目标是非常——

Important part, just like being aligned on what does success look like? Who is this for? Who's this not for? Are you writing PRDs? Is it just like a couple bullet points? How has that evolved in the world of ABM?

重要的部分,就像在成功是什么样子、这是为谁做的、不是为谁做的这些问题上达成一致?你们会写产品需求文档吗?还是只是几个要点?在 AI 原生产品的世界里这是如何演变的?

So there's two things that we do. One is we have very rigorous metrics and we do metrics readouts with the entire team every week. The goal of this is to make sure that everyone deeply understands all the facets of our business, what our key goals are, how they're trending, and what drives them.

我们做两件事。一是我们有非常严格的指标体系,每周与整个团队进行指标解读。目的是确保每个人都深入理解我们业务的各个方面、我们的关键目标是什么、它们的趋势如何,以及是什么在驱动它们。

The second thing that we do is we have this list of team principles. And this includes who our key users are, why those are our key users. And the reason that we articulate all of this is so that everybody on the team feels like they understand how our business works. They understand what's important to us and what we're willing to trade off. And it lets people make decisions by themselves without feeling like they're

我们做的第二件事是有一份团队原则清单。这包括我们的核心用户是谁、为什么他们是我们的核心用户。我们阐明所有这些的原因是让团队中的每个人都觉得他们理解我们的业务如何运作、什么对我们重要、我们愿意做出什么权衡。这让人们可以自己做决定,而不会觉得被——

Blocked on PM or any other stakeholder.

产品经理或其他利益相关者阻碍了。

I love how so much of this is like, okay, we still need PMs in the future. There's so much talk of like why do we need PMs? We're just going to ship and build. We need engineers.

我很喜欢这个讨论的一点是,未来我们仍然需要产品经理。现在有很多声音在说,我们为什么还需要 PM?我们直接发布和构建就行了,我们需要的是工程师。

Oh, we actually do PRDs sometimes. So I think for features that are particularly ambiguous, it does help to write out just a one-pager on what the goals are, what the delightful use cases are, what the failure modes currently are that we need to fix. And there are occasionally some projects, especially things that require heavy infrastructure that do take many months. And for those situations, we do write PRDs still.

其实我们有时候还是会写 PRD 的。我觉得对于那些特别模糊不清的功能,写一份一页纸的文档还是有帮助的,列出目标是什么、理想的使用场景是什么、当前需要修复的失败模式是什么。偶尔也会有一些项目,尤其是那些需要大量基础设施建设、要花好几个月的项目,在这些情况下我们还是会写 PRD。

I want to drill a little bit further into just how you're able to move so fast. I've never seen anything like the pace folks at Anthropic are shipping at. Like someone made this calendar of launches across Anthropic and it was literally every day there was like a

我想再深入了解一下你们是如何做到这么快的速度的。我从来没见过像 Anthropic 这样的发布节奏。有人做了一个 Anthropic 发布日历,上面显示几乎每天都有一个

major feature or product. So, one question people had online is you guys just launched this—not launched but built this incredible model Mythos that is still in preview because it's so powerful people are a little afraid of what it can do.

重大功能或产品发布。所以,网上有人问,你们刚刚推出了——不是推出而是构建了这个令人惊叹的模型 Mythos,它现在还处于预览阶段,因为它太强大了,人们对它能做什么有点担心。

Have you guys been using this? Is this part of the reason you've been able to move so fast?

你们一直在使用这个模型吗?这是你们能够快速推进的部分原因吗?

We've been moving pretty fast for several quarters now. So, I think it's not fully Mythos. Mythos is an incredibly powerful model.

我们已经保持了好几个季度的快速节奏了。所以我认为这不完全是 Mythos 的功劳。Mythos 确实是一个非常强大的模型。

But we do use the models internally and I think this has increased our rate of shipping a little bit, but I don't think it explains the bulk of the increase.

但我们确实在内部使用这些模型,我认为这在一定程度上提高了我们的发布速度,但我不认为这能解释大部分的提升。

I think a lot of it is the process and the expectation on the team. So we're very low on process. We want to remove every single barrier to shipping things. We want to make sure every single person on the team feels empowered to take their idea from just an idea to out in the world in less than a week, sometimes.

我认为很大程度上是流程和团队的期望。我们的流程非常精简。我们想要移除每一个阻碍发布的障碍。我们希望确保团队中的每个人都有能力把自己的想法从构思阶段推进到实际发布,有时候不到一周就能完成。

Even in a day.

甚至一天就能完成。

Cool. Oh man, what an advantage to have the best model and also be building product. That's so cool.

太酷了。天哪,拥有最好的模型同时又在做产品开发,这是多大的优势啊。太棒了。

We are very lucky to be able to work with the Frontier models.

我们非常幸运能够使用这些前沿模型。

Oh my god, what an awesome advantage. Just like build a thing and then use it and then accelerate faster. It's so interesting. There's a couple like these other side things I want to just kind of go on these like side quests on this conversation. There's so much happening with Anthropic and I just I'm so curious to get your insight. One is a week ago or so the whole source code of Claude code leaked. Somebody got it out there. I think it was a mistake someone made. Is there anything you can comment there just like what happened? What went wrong? What should people know?

天哪,这真是个了不起的优势。就是构建一个东西,然后使用它,然后加速得更快。太有意思了。这次对话中还有几个我想探讨的话题,就像是一些支线任务。Anthropic 发生了太多事情,我真的很想听听你的见解。一个是大约一周前,Claude 的整个源代码泄露了。有人把它弄出去了。我想这是有人犯的一个错误。关于这件事你能说点什么吗?发生了什么?哪里出了问题?人们应该知道些什么?

So we immediately looked into this when we saw it. We realized that this was the result of human error. There was...

所以我们看到这个情况后立即进行了调查。我们发现这是人为失误造成的。有一个

A human working with Claude to write a PR. This was just an update to how we release our packages and it actually went through two layers of human review.

工作人员在使用 Claude 帮助编写 PR。这只是对我们发布包的方式的一次更新,而且它实际上经过了两层人工审核。

And so this was a result of human error and we've hardened our processes to make sure that it doesn't happen in the future.

所以这是人为失误的结果,我们已经加强了流程以确保将来不会再发生这种情况。

Is this person still at Anthropic? Are they doing alright?

这个人还在 Anthropic 吗?他们还好吗?

Yes, yes. It's a process failure and the most important thing is to just learn from it and to add more safeguards so that doesn't happen again.

是的,还在。这是一个流程失败,最重要的是从中吸取教训,并增加更多的保障措施,这样就不会再发生了。

And so that's what we've been focused on and most of those have shipped.

这就是我们一直在关注的,而且大部分措施已经实施了。

Okay. Another question I had is OpenClaude. So recently there's been this move to keep people from using Claude subscription with their OpenClaude.

好的。我还有一个问题是关于 OpenClaude 的。最近有一个动作是阻止人们在 OpenClaude 中使用 Claude 订阅。

People got really upset that they're confused why this is happening. It feels like there's harm caused to the open source community.

人们对此非常不满,他们不明白为什么会这样。感觉这对开源社区造成了伤害。

What do people—what do

人们需要——人们需要

People need to understand about kind of what went into this decision?

了解这个决定背后的考虑是什么?

So, we've been seeing a lot of demand for Claude and we've been working very hard to both scale our infrastructure and also to make our models more token efficient so that you can get more usage out of it.

我们看到对 Claude 的需求非常大,我们一直在努力扩展基础设施,同时也在让我们的模型更加 token 高效,这样你就能获得更多的使用量。

It wasn't designed for third party products which have different usage patterns than our first party ones.

它不是为第三方产品设计的,而第三方产品的使用模式与我们自己的产品不同。

We spent a bunch of time trying to figure out what is the most seamless transition that we can offer.

我们花了很多时间试图找出我们能提供的最无缝的过渡方案。

And so I was very happy to be able to say that everyone gets some credits alongside their subscription.

所以我很高兴能够宣布,每个订阅用户都会获得一些额度。

But yeah, we did have to make the hard decision that we needed to prioritize our first party products and our API.

但确实,我们不得不做出一个艰难的决定,就是需要优先保障我们自己的第一方产品和 API。

And so this is a decision that resulted from that.

所以这个决定就是基于那个考虑做出的。

Yeah, this like to me it makes so much sense.

是的,对我来说这完全说得通。

Like you guys are subsidizing this usage at like 200 bucks a month and there's like it's like basically unlimited use of this and like...

你们每月 200 美元的订阅其实是在补贴这些使用成本,而且基本上是无限使用,然后……

I think people don't understand businesses are trying to make money. We're trying to be profitable here. We can't just give away compute when it's so in demand.

我觉得人们不理解企业是要赚钱的。我们要实现盈利。我们不能在算力需求这么大的时候白白送出去。

So I get it. Coming back to the PM team, what does the PM team look like at Anthropic? How many PMs are there? How are they kind of organized?

所以我理解。回到 PM 团队的话题,Anthropic 的 PM 团队是什么样的?有多少 PM?他们是怎么组织的?

Yeah, so we have a few PM teams. I think we're maybe around 30 or 40 PMs right now.

是这样,我们有几个 PM 团队。我想现在大概有 30 到 40 个 PM 左右。

So we have the research PM team who Diane leads, and this team is responsible for understanding all of the feedback from our customers for our models and then feeding that to the research team to act on it, and they also shepherd the model launch.

我们有研究 PM 团队,由 Diane 领导,这个团队负责了解客户对我们模型的所有反馈,然后把这些反馈传递给研究团队去处理,他们还负责推进模型发布。

There's the Cloud developer platform team that maintains the APIs that Claude is built on top of, and they also release things like managed agents, which is a way for you to build your agents and we can host it on your behalf.

还有 Cloud 开发者平台团队,维护 Claude 所基于的 API,他们还发布像托管代理这样的功能,让你可以构建自己的代理,我们代为托管。

And then there's Claude that works on both

然后是 Claude 团队,负责

Cloud Code and the Cowork core products. There's Enterprise that helps make Cloud Code and Cowork easier to adopt for all of our enterprise customers.

Cloud Code 和 Cowork 核心产品。还有企业团队,帮助我们所有企业客户更容易地采用 Cloud Code 和 Cowork。

And so this is everything from like cost controls, RBAC, security controls, and just making sure that these enterprises feel very confident and comfortable using our tools.

这包括成本控制、基于角色的访问控制、安全控制等所有方面,确保这些企业对使用我们的工具感到非常有信心和放心。

And then we also have our growth team that is responsible for growing across our entire product suite.

然后我们还有增长团队,负责整个产品套件的增长。

So we work very closely with them on Cloud Code and Cowork growth, and I know they also work with our other teams on CDP growth—so growth of people who use the Cloud API.

所以我们在 Cloud Code 和 Cowork 的增长上与他们密切合作,我知道他们也和其他团队合作推动 CDP 的增长——也就是使用 Cloud API 的用户增长。

So speaking of growth, Amol was just on the podcast. He had this really interesting insight that most people haven't been sharing.

说到增长,Amol 刚上过播客。他有一个很有意思的见解,大多数人都没有分享过。

There's always this sense that we need fewer PMs in the future. What's the—why do we need PMs? Engineers can just ship.

总有一种感觉是未来我们需要更少的 PM。为什么需要 PM 呢?工程师可以直接发布产品。

His take is that because engineers are moving so fast, PMs and—

他的观点是,因为工程师推进得太快了,PM 和——

Designers are squeezed. There's less time to stay on top of everything that is happening. There's a feature shipping every day.

设计师被挤压了。没有足够的时间跟上正在发生的一切。每天都有功能在发布。

So his take is he needs more PMs because it's hard to keep up.

所以他的观点是他需要更多 PM,因为很难跟上节奏。

What's your take there? Do you feel like there will be an increase in hiring of PMs? What do you think is going on with the PM profession long term?

你怎么看?你觉得 PM 的招聘会增加吗?你认为 PM 这个职业长期来看会怎样?

I think all of the roles are merging. PMs are doing some engineering work, engineers are doing PM work, designers are PMing and also landing code.

我觉得所有角色都在融合。PM 在做一些工程工作,工程师在做 PM 的工作,设计师在做 PM 的事也在提交代码。

You can either hire a lot more engineers who have great product taste or you can keep your engineering hiring the same and hire a lot more PMs to help guide some of their work.

你可以选择招聘更多有出色产品品味的工程师,或者保持工程师招聘规模不变,招聘更多 PM 来帮助指导他们的一部分工作。

On our team we're pretty focused on hiring engineers with great product taste. This way we can reduce the amount of overhead for shipping any product.

在我们团队,我们更专注于招聘有出色产品品味的工程师。这样我们可以减少发布任何产品的管理开销。

There are many engineers on our team who are fully able to end-to-end go from seeing user feedback on Twitter through to shipping.

我们团队有很多工程师完全能够端到端地从 Twitter 上看到用户反馈一直做到发布产品。

A product at the end of the week with almost no product involvement. And this I think is actually like the most efficient way to ship something.

到周末就能交付一个产品,而且几乎不需要产品经理介入。我认为这其实是最高效的交付方式。

So I think like engineer and PM are kind of overlapping and you will get a lot of benefit from having more of either.

所以我觉得工程师和产品经理的职能是有重叠的,无论增加哪一方的人手都能获得很多好处。

I think product taste is still a very rare skill to have and we'll pretty much hire anyone who we feel has demonstrated this strongly.

我认为产品品味仍然是一项非常稀缺的技能,基本上只要有人能强有力地展现出这种能力,我们就会录用。

And your background was in engineering, right?

你的背景是工程师出身,对吧?

Yeah, I was an engineer for many years. I was then a VC very briefly before joining Anthropic and actually almost all the PMs on our team have either been engineers or ship code here on Claude code and so that's one of the things that I think helps build trust with the team and also just enables us to move a lot faster and then actually our designers also have been front-end engineers before.

对,我做了很多年工程师。之后短暂做过风投,然后加入了 Anthropic。实际上我们团队几乎所有产品经理要么曾是工程师,要么在这里为 Claude 写代码。我认为这是帮助我们与团队建立信任的因素之一,也让我们能够行动得更快。而且我们的设计师之前也都做过前端工程师。

Wow because that's the big

哇,因为这是个大问题——

Question like there's definitely this merging that's happening, the Venn diagrams you're combining.

确实正在发生这种融合,各个职能的维恩图正在合并。

I think the big question for a lot of people is if you're coming from engineering or product or design, which of those core skills is going to be most valuable?

我认为很多人面临的大问题是:如果你来自工程、产品或设计背景,这些核心技能中哪一个会最有价值?

I could see at Anthropic and on Claude, code engineering is very valuable.

我能看到在 Anthropic 和 Claude 团队,编程工程能力是非常有价值的。

I'm curious if at other companies, if you have a design background, becoming a PM is more valuable or just a PM in general.

我很好奇在其他公司,如果你有设计背景,成为产品经理是否更有价值,或者说单纯的产品经理角色是否更有价值。

I still think it comes back to product taste.

我仍然认为归根结底还是产品品味。

Like as code becomes much cheaper to write, the thing that becomes more valuable is deciding what to write.

随着写代码的成本大幅降低,更有价值的是决定写什么。

Like what is the right UX for this feature?

比如这个功能的正确用户体验是什么?

What is the most delightful way that a user can experience it?

用户体验它的最令人愉悦的方式是什么?

We get tens of thousands of GitHub issues asking for every single thing under the sun, and it takes a lot of care and taste to figure out, okay, which of these is worth building and what is the right way to build it, and I think that that skill is what matters.

我们收到成千上万个 GitHub issue,要求各种各样的功能,需要投入大量精力和品味来判断:好,这些里面哪些值得做,以及正确的做法是什么。我认为这种能力才是最重要的。

Certainly can come from any background, but I think that's the most important thing.

这种能力当然可以来自任何背景,但我认为这是最重要的。

I think the reason why an engineering background is particularly useful, at least for the next few months, is if you have an engineering background, you have a better sense for how hard something should be.

我认为工程背景特别有用的原因,至少在接下来几个月内,是如果你有工程背景,你会更清楚某件事应该有多难。

And that's often a factor in what you choose to build. So like if something is very easy to build, then maybe instead of debating it, you just spend an hour doing it.

而这往往是你选择做什么的一个因素。比如如果某件事很容易做,那与其争论不如直接花一小时把它做出来。

But if something is harder to build and you know that upfront, you know that, okay, this will just cost a lot more for our team to get this out the door.

但如果某件事更难做,而你提前知道这一点,你就知道:好,这会让我们团队付出更大的代价才能完成。

So it helps a bit with the prioritization.

所以这对优先级排序有一定帮助。

You said in the next, for the next few months—is that just like because the models will get so good potentially in the next few months?

你说「在接下来几个月内」——是因为模型可能在接下来几个月会变得非常好?

You may not even need to know that as much?

你可能甚至不太需要了解这些了?

I think the valued skill sets do change quite frequently, and so it's really hard to predict more than a few months out.

我认为有价值的技能组合确实变化得相当频繁,所以很难预测几个月以后的情况。

It's less a commentary on what shift I think will happen and more of a commentary that I think large shifts will happen.

这与其说是在评论我认为会发生什么转变,不如说是在评论我认为会发生重大转变。

So you're not saying that's when Mythos comes out and we'll change everything and that we don't need to know anything about engineering.

所以你不是说那时候 Mythos 会发布,然后改变一切,我们就不需要懂任何工程知识了。

No, I'm just saying that every few months it seems like there's a—

不是,我只是说每隔几个月似乎就会有一次——

Yeah.

是的。

There's a large increase in coding capability which then changes what other roles are valuable.

编程能力会有一次大幅提升,然后就会改变其他哪些角色是有价值的。

I think the most important thing is to be able to have this first principles thinking where you can figure out how the tech landscape is changing, what the team really needs from you, and to jump in and fix that hole, because I think the work is becoming more amorphous, which means that a great PM is able to understand what all the gaps are, to figure out what the highest priority—

我认为最重要的是要有第一性原理思维,能够弄清楚技术格局是如何变化的,团队真正需要你做什么,然后跳进去填补那个空缺,因为我觉得工作正在变得更加不定形,这意味着一个优秀的产品经理能够理解所有的缺口在哪里,找出最高优先级的——

ones are and then to just like figure out okay how do I learn that skill set or what is like the skill set that I have that I can like apply to this challenge.

是哪些,然后就想办法,好吧我怎么学习那个技能,或者我有什么技能可以应用到这个挑战上。

So I think the current environment values people who are able to wear a lot of hats, are able to swap them, and are like very low ego about what work they do to help the team move faster.

所以我认为当前的环境看重那些能够身兼多职、能够灵活切换角色、并且对自己做什么工作来帮助团队加速没有自我执念的人。

I love this answer. There's this question I've been asking people in your shoes, folks that are kind of at the bleeding edge of what AI is capable of and building with the latest tools, which is just like where will human brains continue to be useful and necessary for a while until we get to super intelligence.

我很喜欢这个回答。有个问题我一直在问处于你这个位置的人,就是那些站在AI能力最前沿、用最新工具构建产品的人,就是人类大脑在哪些方面会继续有用、继续必要,至少在我们达到超级智能之前的一段时间里。

What I'm hearing here is essentially picking the things to work on, knowing where the market's going and figuring out what to prioritize essentially.

我从你这里听到的本质上是选择要做什么事情,知道市场走向,以及弄清楚优先级。

And then it's knowing if the thing you've built is good and right.

然后就是知道你构建的东西是否好、是否正确。

And getting it out there in some early version at least. Does that sound right? Is there anything else of just like where human brains will continue to be useful for at least the next few months?

还有至少把它以某个早期版本的形式发布出去。这样理解对吗?还有其他关于人类大脑至少在接下来几个月里会继续有用的地方吗?

I think humans still provide a level of common sense that the models don't.

我认为人类仍然提供了模型所不具备的常识水平。

And there's like a thousand moving pieces to any product launch. Some of them are very small, but there's always a lot that could potentially go wrong.

任何产品发布都有成千上万个活动部件。有些很小,但总有很多地方可能出错。

I think the model doesn't always have a great sense of who all the stakeholders are, how they relate to each other, what their preferences are, what are the right venues to communicate with them to keep them on board.

我认为模型并不总是很好地了解所有利益相关者是谁,他们之间的关系如何,他们的偏好是什么,与他们沟通以保持他们支持的正确渠道是什么。

I think a lot of this more tacit common sense, like EQ kind of knowledge, is still very valuable.

我认为很多这种更隐性的常识,比如情商类的知识,仍然非常有价值。

Of course, we want the models to get better at this and I think they will be, but right now I think there's still gaps.

当然,我们希望模型在这方面变得更好,我认为它们会的,但现在我觉得还是有差距的。

How do you just kind of deal as a human going through so much constant change, just like just being on—

作为人类,你如何应对这么多持续不断的变化,就像身处——

The inside of the tornado? Maybe it's calm there, but just like how do you stay on top of what's going on? How do you stay sane through all this craziness that we're moving through?

龙卷风内部?也许那里很平静,但就是你怎么跟上正在发生的事情?你怎么在我们正在经历的所有这些疯狂中保持理智?

I think our team is full of people who lean into the chaos. So we try to face every challenge with a smile because there's always so much going on. There's always so many risks and tricky situations that, you know, if you get too stressed about anything you'll burn out.

我认为我们团队里都是拥抱混乱的人。所以我们试图微笑着面对每一个挑战,因为总是有太多事情在发生。总是有那么多风险和棘手的情况,你知道,如果你对任何事情都太紧张,你就会精疲力竭。

And so we really look for people who can kind of look at a challenge and be like, that's going to be hard, but I'm excited to tackle it and I'm going to do the best that I possibly can. And I know I won't be perfect, but I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that I did my best.

所以我们真的在寻找那些能够看着一个挑战然后说,这会很难,但我很兴奋去解决它,我会尽我所能做到最好。我知道我不会完美,但我能够安心入睡,因为我知道我已经尽力了。

That's an interesting answer to just like what skills will be important in this future, because I forget who said this, maybe Ben—man, that this is the most normal the world will—

这是一个有趣的答案,关于在这个未来什么技能会重要,因为我忘了是谁说的,可能是Ben——天哪,说这是世界将会——

ever be.

最正常的时候。

Yeah, it definitely gets harder. Like I feel like there are a lot of weeks where maybe Sunday night there's some like P0 and then by Monday there's like a P0 and by Monday afternoon there's a P0000 and you're like wow, I can't believe I was so worried about that P0 from Sunday.

是的,确实会越来越难。我感觉有很多周,可能周日晚上有个P0级问题,然后到周一有个P0级问题,到周一下午有个P0000级问题,你就会想,哇,真不敢相信我周日还那么担心那个P0。

But I think you just have to acknowledge that there's only so much that you can do, that you need to sleep well so that you can make good decisions the next day and just like brutally prioritize where you spend your time. What's the most important thing to get right? And be okay letting things go. Like there's products that we ship that aren't as polished as I wish they were. But you know, our top goal is to help empower professional developers. And if a product isn't successful, as long as it's not blocking the core use case, it's okay because we'll hear the feedback and we'll fix it in the next

但我认为你必须承认你能做的只有这么多,你需要睡好觉才能在第二天做出好的决策,并且要残酷地优先考虑你把时间花在哪里。什么是最重要的要做对的事情?并且要能接受放手一些事情。比如我们发布的产品有些并不像我希望的那样精致。但你知道,我们的首要目标是帮助赋能专业开发者。如果一个产品不成功,只要它不阻碍核心用例,就没关系,因为我们会听到反馈,我们会在下一个版本中修复它。

Release. Launching a feature that is buggy is the kind of thing that would have kept me up at night. But it is something that I am now able to live with, knowing that okay, we're going to get that quick feedback and we're going to fix it in the next release.

发布一个有bug的功能是那种会让我彻夜难眠的事情。但这是我现在能够接受的事情,知道好吧,我们会得到那个快速反馈,我们会在下一个版本中修复它。

What I'm imagining is there's that gif, I think it's maybe from Pirates of the Caribbean, where it's this guy walking down a pair of stairs on a ship and the whole ship is just being demolished around him and he's so chill, just strolling down the staircase as everything's falling apart. And that's interesting because everyone I've met from Anthropic is just so chill and just so optimistic.

我想象的是有那个gif动图,我想可能是来自《加勒比海盗》,就是这个人在船上走下一对楼梯,整艘船在他周围被摧毁,而他非常淡定,就这样漫步走下楼梯,周围一切都在崩塌。这很有意思,因为我遇到的每个Anthropic的人都非常淡定,非常乐观。

Yeah, that's I think that's a really interesting insight, just like having this calmness and optimism versus just like, oh my god, everything's crazy and going nuts. Yeah, I think if you don't have it, you'll get pretty burnt out. I think we also tend to hire

是的,我觉得这是一个很有意思的洞察,就是保持这种冷静和乐观,而不是那种「天哪,一切都乱套了」的状态。我觉得如果你没有这种心态,很容易就会精疲力竭。我们在招人的时候也倾向于

People who have been in the industry for a while and have experienced lots of ups and downs and have a good sense for what gives them energy and how to maintain their energy over time, and I think that's helped us a lot.

招那些在行业里待了一段时间、经历过各种起起落落的人,他们对什么能给自己带来能量、如何长期保持精力有很好的感觉,这对我们帮助很大。

So interesting. Something that I wanted to ask about is, so there's these roles blurring. Engineers are becoming PMs, everyone's dogs are cats, everyone's everyone. What do we lose in that world? Do we lose like career ladders and clear career paths? Do we lose design consistency, code quality? You know, there's probably some downsides. What are some things you find are just like, okay, that's something we're sacrificing for the greater good?

很有意思。我想问的是,现在这些角色界限在模糊,工程师在做 PM 的事,所有人都在做所有事。在这种情况下我们会失去什么?我们会失去职业阶梯和清晰的职业路径吗?会失去设计一致性、代码质量吗?可能会有一些负面影响。你觉得有哪些是我们为了更大的利益而不得不牺牲的?

We're sacrificing product consistency. Historically, when code was expensive to write, you would carefully plan out everything in your product suite, how every product relates to each other, what the use case for every single one is, how they integrate, and you would...

我们牺牲的是产品一致性。以前,当写代码成本很高的时候,你会仔细规划产品套件中的所有内容,每个产品之间的关系、每个产品的使用场景、它们如何集成,然后你会

Pretty much have one product for each use case. And now with AI moving so quickly and with so many ideas that we need to test out, we do sometimes have features that overlap with each other.

基本上为每个使用场景做一个产品。但现在 AI 发展得太快了,我们需要测试的想法太多了,所以有时候确实会有功能之间相互重叠。

A lot of the times it's because there's two form factors that we love internally and we want the external audience to tell us which one is better.

很多时候是因为我们内部有两种都很喜欢的形式,我们想让外部用户告诉我们哪一种更好。

What that means for someone who's a new user though is a new user might not know, okay, what is the best path to accomplish X.

但这对新用户来说意味着,新用户可能不知道,好吧,完成某件事的最佳路径是什么。

There is more education we need to do to help people understand what the core features are and what the best practices are for using them.

我们需要做更多的用户教育,帮助人们理解核心功能是什么,以及使用它们的最佳实践是什么。

I think this is the cost of launching a lot of features.

我认为这是快速发布大量功能的代价。

I think users also feel like it's hard to keep up with the latest.

我觉得用户也会感到很难跟上最新的东西。

Usually in traditional PM you ship a feature every month or quarter. And so it's really easy for a user to understand, okay, I just need to check in on this once a month and I'll learn some

通常在传统的产品管理中,你每个月或每个季度发布一个功能。所以用户很容易理解,好的,我只需要每个月查看一次,就能学到一些

New things, and if I ignore it for six months, it's fine. I don't feel like I'm missing out.

新东西,如果我六个月不管它,也没关系,我不会觉得错过了什么。

I think with these agentic tools, not just Coda Code and Cowork, but like across the whole ecosystem, people feel this need to like check Twitter every single day to see what the absolute latest thing is.

我觉得对于这些智能体工具,不仅仅是 Coda Code 和 Cowork,而是整个生态系统,人们感到需要每天都查看 Twitter 来看最新的东西是什么。

And I think there's more we can do to help people feel less like they're on this ever-increasingly fast treadmill, and that they feel like—I would love people to feel like they can just open these tools.

我认为我们可以做更多事情,让人们不那么觉得自己在一个越来越快的跑步机上,让他们感到——我希望人们能感到他们可以直接打开这些工具。

The tools will educate them or like teach them what they want to know, and that they can just feel more brought along.

工具会教育他们或者教他们想知道的东西,让他们感到更被带着走。

Yeah, I saw you launch this really interesting feature the other day. I think it's /powerup where it basically walks you through all the cool ways and all basically all the best practices to use Claude Code. Is that kind of along these lines?

是的,我看到你前几天发布了一个很有意思的功能。我想是 /powerup,它基本上会引导你了解所有很酷的方式,基本上就是使用 Claude Code 的所有最佳实践。这是不是沿着这个思路?

Yeah, exactly. So, in the past, we

是的,没错。所以,过去我们

We didn't actually want to do something like PowerUp because we felt like the product should be intuitive enough that you don't actually need to go through any tutorial.

其实不想做像 PowerUp 这样的东西,因为我们觉得产品应该足够直观,你实际上不需要经过任何教程。

And over time, we've just realized that there's just so many features and there's so much demand for a built-in onboarding experience that we diverged a bit from our original principle saying no onboarding flow and added this because there's just so many users who wanted to know there's 100 features.

但随着时间推移,我们意识到功能实在太多了,对内置引导体验的需求也太大了,所以我们稍微偏离了最初「不做引导流程」的原则,加入了这个功能,因为有太多用户想知道有 100 个功能。

What are the 10 that I absolutely need to use? And so we put that together.

哪 10 个是我绝对需要使用的?所以我们把它做出来了。

Yeah, it's such a bizarre world. So Anthropic has been really successful with B2B enterprises where traditionally you don't launch a bunch of stuff, you just kind of have a quarterly release maybe, and it's like the opposite of every day we got something new.

是的,这真是个奇怪的世界。Anthropic 在 B2B 企业市场非常成功,而传统上你不会发布一堆东西,可能就是每季度发布一次,但现在完全相反,每天都有新东西。

So just maybe following that thread, the run Anthropic has been on is just otherworldly. Anthropic was way behind

顺着这个话题,Anthropic 的发展势头简直不可思议。Anthropic 一开始远远落后

When it started, it was just like one of the least funded companies, didn't have distribution, wasn't the first to go, OpenAI was way ahead. It was just like no way Anthropic has any chance to compete significantly long term.

刚开始的时候,它是资金最少的公司之一,没有分发渠道,也不是第一个出发的,OpenAI 遥遥领先。当时感觉 Anthropic 根本没有机会长期显著竞争。

Now it's just killing it, just beating the biggest companies' teams with so much—the growth is just like 11 billion dollars in ARR in one month percent growth. By the time this comes out, it'll probably be even higher.

现在它简直势不可挡,击败了最大公司的团队,增长速度惊人——一个月就达到 110 亿美元的 ARR,百分比增长也很高。等这期节目出来的时候,可能会更高。

Just being on the inside, what are some ingredients that have allowed Anthropic to be this successful and kind of come from behind and do this well?

作为内部人员,有哪些因素让 Anthropic 能够如此成功,从后面追上来并做得这么好?

The two most important things are, one, this unifying mission. It's hard to state how important this is. We hire people who care most about bringing safe AGI to all of humanity, and this is actually something that we reference frequently in our decisions about what our entire product org should focus on shipping. And because we put this mission above—

最重要的两点是:第一,这个统一的使命。很难说清楚这有多重要。我们招聘的都是最关心为全人类带来安全 AGI 的人,而且我们在决定整个产品组织应该专注交付什么时,会经常参考这个使命。正因为我们把这个使命放在——

Any individual product line, we're able to make very fast decisions that cut across the entire org and execute on them in a unified way.

任何单个产品线之上,我们才能够非常快速地做出跨整个组织的决策,并以统一的方式执行。

So I think this is something that I've never seen at a company of our scale.

所以我认为这是我在我们这个规模的公司从未见过的。

And so just to make sure that's clear, so essentially having the number one mission is safety alignment, making sure AI is good for the world.

为了确保理解清楚,本质上就是把第一使命定为安全对齐,确保 AI 对世界有益。

And you're saying just having that as a clear mission makes decisions a lot easier to make.

你是说仅仅把这个作为明确的使命,就让决策变得容易得多。

If there's two competing priorities, we'll talk about which one is more important for Anthropic's mission.

如果有两个相互竞争的优先事项,我们会讨论哪一个对 Anthropic 的使命更重要。

And it makes it a lot easier to decide which of the two we prioritize.

这让我们更容易决定优先处理哪一个。

And then everyone will stand behind the one that we decide.

然后每个人都会支持我们决定的那个。

And so sometimes that means that, hey, we want to ship something on Claude code, but this other thing is more important.

所以有时候这意味着,嘿,我们想在 Claude Code 上发布某个功能,但另一件事更重要。

And so we deprioritize shipping this and we just wait until later.

于是我们就降低这个发布的优先级,等到以后再说。

What's really

真正

What's interesting about that is that it explains, I think, versus another company maybe that rhymes with OpenAI, they did a lot of different things. And what I'm hearing here essentially is like, okay, we're not going to launch a social network, we're not going to launch a feed of interesting information because it's not aligned to this mission, and that has kept Anthropic focused, which seems to be a core ingredient to the success.

真正有意思的是,我觉得这解释了,相比另一家名字听起来像 OpenAI 的公司,他们做了很多不同的事情。而我在这里听到的本质上是,好的,我们不会推出社交网络,不会推出有趣信息流,因为这些不符合我们的使命,这让 Anthropic 保持了专注,而这似乎是成功的核心要素。

Well, when I think about mission, I think about putting Anthropic's goals ahead of any individual or any individual product. And so for me, I think the second thing that we're very good at is focus. I think mission to me is slightly different. Mission means that teams are willing to make sacrifices that hurt their own goals and their own KPIs in service of Anthropic's goals and Anthropic's KPIs. And people are very happy to make those trade-offs. So like an extreme example...

嗯,当我想到使命时,我想到的是把 Anthropic 的目标放在任何个人或任何单个产品之前。所以对我来说,我认为我们非常擅长的第二件事是专注。我认为使命对我来说略有不同。使命意味着团队愿意做出牺牲,损害自己的目标和自己的 KPI,来服务于 Anthropic 的目标和 Anthropic 的 KPI。而且人们非常乐意做出这些权衡。比如一个极端的例子...

If Claude failed but Anthropic succeeded, I would be extremely happy, and the whole team is very willing to make decisions that follow that chain of thought.

如果 Claude 失败了但 Anthropic 成功了,我会非常高兴,整个团队都非常愿意按照这个思路做决策。

I don't know if you can talk about this in depth, but do you feel like the open source decision is a part of this? Just like, okay, this is not furthering the mission of Anthropic, we need to stop this because it's not working in the way we want it to work?

不知道你能不能深入谈谈这个,但你觉得开源决策是这个的一部分吗?就像,好吧,这没有推进 Anthropic 的使命,我们需要停止这个,因为它没有按我们想要的方式运作?

I think one of the most important things for Anthropic is to grow the number of users that we're able to reach. One of the ways that we're able to do this is with the Claude subscriptions with our first-party products, and so we just very much want to double down on that, but that does come at the expense of third-party products sometimes.

我认为对 Anthropic 来说最重要的事情之一是增加我们能够触达的用户数量。我们能做到这一点的方式之一是通过 Claude 订阅和我们的第一方产品,所以我们非常想在这方面加倍投入,但这有时确实会以牺牲第三方产品为代价。

So we've been talking about Claude, agentic work, all these things. Something that I want to make sure people get, and I'm curious just how you use these

我们一直在谈论 Claude、智能体工作,所有这些东西。有件事我想确保大家理解,我也很好奇你是如何使用这些

Tools. So there's Cloud Code, there's Cloud Desktop, there's Cowork. What's the best way to understand when to use which? When do you use each of these three?

工具的。有 Claude Code,有 Claude Desktop,还有 Cowork。理解何时使用哪个的最佳方式是什么?你什么时候使用这三个中的每一个?

So I tend to use Cloud Code in the terminal when I'm just kicking off like a one-off coding task and I want all of the latest features.

我倾向于在终端中使用 Claude Code,当我只是启动一个一次性的编码任务,并且想要所有最新功能时。

The CLI is our initial product surface and it's also the one where our features often land first, and so it's the most powerful of all the tools.

CLI 是我们最初的产品界面,也是我们的功能经常首先落地的地方,所以它是所有工具中最强大的。

So that's what I tend to use when I'm just like trying to kick off one or like maybe like a handful of tasks at a time.

所以当我只是想启动一个或者可能几个任务时,我倾向于使用它。

I think Desktop really shines when you're doing something that requires front-end work.

我认为 Desktop 在你做需要前端工作的事情时真正发光。

And so one thing that I love to do is to use our preview feature. So if I'm building a web app, I'll often use Cloud Code and Desktop. I'll have the preview pane open on the right-hand side so that I can actually see the web app that I'm making in real

所以我喜欢做的一件事是使用我们的预览功能。如果我在构建一个 web 应用,我经常会同时使用 Claude Code 和 Desktop。我会在右侧打开预览面板,这样我就能实际看到我正在制作的 web 应用

Time as I'm chatting with Claude, it's also really great for people who want something a bit more graphical. A terminal can feel very unfamiliar to someone who's nontechnical.

在我与 Claude 聊天时实时显示,这对想要更图形化界面的人来说也非常好。终端对非技术人员来说可能感觉很陌生。

You get a bunch of these scary popups on your machine and you can't click around the way that you're used to in pretty much every other product that you use.

你的机器上会出现一堆这些吓人的弹窗,而且你不能像在几乎所有其他你使用的产品中那样点击操作。

So there's a lot of people who just don't feel comfortable in terminal, and if that's you, I would highly recommend checking out Claude Code on desktop.

有很多人在终端里操作会感到不舒服,如果你也是这样,我强烈推荐试试桌面版的 Claude Code。

Desktop is also great for getting an at-a-glance view of everything that's happening.

桌面版还有个好处,就是能让你一眼看清所有正在进行的事情。

So you can see your CLI terminal sessions in desktop, you can see your other desktop sessions, you can see your sessions that you kicked off on web and mobile.

你可以在桌面版里看到你的 CLI 终端会话,看到其他桌面会话,还能看到你在网页端和移动端启动的会话。

So it's a one-stop control plane where you can see all of your tasks.

它就像一个一站式的控制面板,让你能看到所有任务。

I think the benefit of web and mobile is that it's really great for kicking things off on the go. So CLI and desktop both require

我觉得网页版和移动版的优势在于,它们特别适合在外出时启动任务。因为 CLI 和桌面版都需要

You to be on your local laptop. And this is constraining because sometimes you're out and about, you're like touching grass, you're going on a walk and you don't have your laptop open and you don't—I can't count the number of people who I've seen like holding their laptop open like tethered to their phone while they're outside.

你在本地笔记本电脑上操作。这就有局限性了,因为有时候你在外面,比如出去走走、散散步,没有打开笔记本电脑,而且——我见过太多人在外面举着打开的笔记本电脑,还要连着手机热点。

And this just means that we're missing a product that solves that need.

这说明我们缺少一个能解决这种需求的产品。

And so for me, what mobile lets you do is kick off these tasks on the go so that you don't need to bring your laptop everywhere and make sure that your laptop's open wherever you are.

所以对我来说,移动版的作用就是让你能在外出时启动这些任务,这样你就不需要到哪儿都带着笔记本电脑,也不用确保笔记本一直开着。

I love that. I've seen people on plane—like it's just such a meme now. Just I need to finish, let this agent finish. I can't shut this down. I need Wi-Fi.

我太喜欢这个了。我见过有人在飞机上——这都成梗了。就是「我得让这个 agent 完成任务,不能关机,我需要 Wi-Fi」。

And then I think for co-work, the role that this fills is there's a lot of work that everyone does where the output isn't code. So whether that's like

然后我觉得 Cowork 的定位是,大家有很多工作的产出物并不是代码。比如

Getting to Slack zero or inbox zero, or whether that's creating a slide deck for some customer meeting that's coming up, or whether that's writing a quick doc on what the goals of a feature are or what the launch plan for a feature is.

清空 Slack 消息或者清空收件箱,或者为即将到来的客户会议制作幻灯片,或者快速写一份文档说明某个功能的目标是什么,或者这个功能的发布计划是什么。

All these tasks produce outputs that are non-code, and Cowork is best positioned for that.

所有这些任务产出的都不是代码,而 Cowork 最适合处理这类工作。

So the way that I split the products in my mind is if I'm building something where the output is code, I'll use Claude Code or Desktop or Claude Code on mobile.

所以我在心里是这样区分这些产品的:如果我要构建的东西产出是代码,我会用 Claude Code、桌面版或者移动端的 Claude Code。

And if the output is anything that's not code, I'll use Cowork for it.

如果产出不是代码,我就会用 Cowork。

People are just like sleeping on the success that Cowork—it's just like growing incredibly fast, and I think people still don't understand maybe what it's for.

大家真的是低估了 Cowork 的成功——它增长得非常快,但我觉得人们可能还不太理解它是用来做什么的。

And so what if you give us a couple use cases just in your work as a PM? What are some like really interesting, maybe unexpected ways you use Cowork to save you time, get more work done?

能不能给我们讲几个使用场景?作为产品经理,你有哪些特别有意思的、也许出人意料的方式在用 Cowork 来节省时间、完成更多工作?

If you're getting started on Cowork, the first thing that you really need to do is connect all the data sources that are relevant to your role, because Cowork can only do a great job if it has access to all the context that it needs to be able to curate the output for you.

如果你刚开始用 Cowork,首先真正需要做的是连接所有与你工作相关的数据源,因为只有 Cowork 能访问到它需要的所有上下文,它才能为你精心定制出色的产出。

So what that means for me is I connect it to my Google Calendar, I connect it to my Slack, to my Gmail, to my Google Drive, so that it just knows it has the flexibility to find relevant context, to ask questions, to pull in threads, and this substantially improves the quality of the result.

对我来说就是,我会连接 Google Calendar、Slack、Gmail、Google Drive,这样它就能灵活地找到相关上下文、提出问题、提取对话线索,这会大幅提升结果的质量。

The kinds of things I use it for are, like last night I was working where we have this Cowork Cloud conference coming up and there's a few talks that I'm giving there, and one of the talks that we're doing talks about the transition of Cowork from an assistant to like a full-on agent, and one of the things that I wanted to do in this talk was to showcase all of the products that we've

我用它做的事情比如,昨晚我在准备即将到来的 Cowork Cloud 大会,我要在那里做几场演讲,其中一场演讲要讲 Cowork 从助手到完整 agent 的转变,我想在这场演讲中展示我们为了实现这个转变

We've been shipping that to enable this transition and also to figure out, okay, what are the success stories that people have had internally that we can use as demos.

一直在发布的所有产品,还要找出内部有哪些成功案例可以用作演示。

And so I have my Google Drive connected, I have Slack connected. Alex, who's our product marketer, put together like a draft of what the points that he thinks we should cover are.

我连接了 Google Drive 和 Slack。我们的产品营销 Alex 整理了一份草稿,列出了他认为我们应该涵盖的要点。

And so I just like fed this all into Cowork. I told Cowork the narrative that I want to tell.

所以我就把这些都输入给 Cowork,告诉它我想讲述的叙事线。

And it actually just worked for an hour. It walked through Twitter to see what we launched.

然后它真的就工作了一个小时。它浏览了 Twitter 看我们发布了什么。

It looked through our evergreen launch room. It looked in our Codebase announce channel, which is where our team posts demos of how they've been getting the most value out of Codebase.

它查看了我们的常青发布室,还看了我们的 Codebase announce 频道,那是我们团队发布如何从 Codebase 获得最大价值的演示的地方。

And it synthesized all this together to this 20-page deck that I woke up to this morning, and I read through it and it was like pretty good.

它把所有这些综合成了一份 20 页的幻灯片,我今早醒来看到的,读了一遍,质量还挺不错的。

There were a few tweaks, so I did have to give it a round of feedback.

有一些地方需要调整,所以我确实给了一轮反馈。

Of feedback. I like my slides to have extremely minimal words and it was a little too wordy, but you know, it was far faster than what I would be able to produce.

反馈意见。我喜欢幻灯片上的文字极简,而它生成的文字稍微有点多,但你知道,这比我自己做要快得多。

And because Cowork has access to our whole design system, it actually looks like an Anthropic designer put it together.

而且因为 Cowork 可以访问我们整个设计系统,它实际上看起来就像是 Anthropic 的设计师做出来的。

When you visually see it, you're like, "Oh, this is incredibly polished."

当你视觉上看到它时,你会觉得「哦,这真的非常精致」。

So these are the kinds of things that are so much faster. Making this slide deck would have taken me hours, but instead it turns out a draft that is actually quite good so I could focus on making sure that the demos are amazing that we plug into it.

所以这些事情快了太多。制作这个幻灯片本来要花我好几个小时,但现在它输出了一个其实相当不错的草稿,这样我就可以专注于确保我们插入的演示效果惊艳。

This sounds like a dream come true to PMs. Putting decks together is so annoying.

这对产品经理来说简直是梦想成真。做幻灯片真的太烦人了。

It's so slow.

太慢了。

And I love that people will see this deck whenever you present this. This will be out in the world. Obviously it's not the one-shotted version, but...

我很喜欢的一点是,当你展示这个幻灯片时,人们会看到它。它会出现在公众面前。显然这不是一次生成的版本,但是……

You've iterated on it, so just to help people try this for themselves. So step one is connect their—what did you say? Slack. What else do you suggest they connect?

你已经迭代过了,所以为了帮助大家自己尝试这个。第一步是连接他们的——你刚才说什么来着?Slack。你还建议他们连接什么?

Slack, Google Calendar, Gmail, Google Drive. You should connect your communications tools and where you store your source of truth data for what your team cares about, what you care about, and what you're working on.

Slack、Google Calendar、Gmail、Google Drive。你应该连接你的沟通工具,以及你存储团队关心的内容、你关心的内容和你正在做的事情的真实数据源的地方。

Okay. And then what was the prompt roughly that you put in there to generate this deck?

好的。然后你输入的提示词大概是什么来生成这个幻灯片的?

So I just wrote, 'Make me a slide deck for the Code with Claude conference. This is what our PMM suggested it should cover. This is the current draft that I made that I don't like. This is one that I made manually that I don't like, but I linked it. Can you start by creating a proposed outline with details? Also, make sure it doesn't overlap too much with a keynote talk, which is more important.' And then Claude read a bunch—

我就写了,「给我做一个 Code with Claude 大会的幻灯片。这是我们的产品营销经理建议应该涵盖的内容。这是我做的当前草稿,我不喜欢。这是我手动做的一个,我也不喜欢,但我附上了链接。你能先创建一个带详细信息的提议大纲吗?另外,确保它不要和主题演讲重叠太多,主题演讲更重要。」然后 Claude 读了很多——

Of the links that I sent to it and created a proposed outline. So then I read through its proposal and all the different ideas that it had generated for what we could cover and I just made a decision on what I wanted to actually be in the final deck.

我发给它的链接,并创建了一个提议大纲。然后我通读了它的提议以及它为我们可以涵盖的内容生成的所有不同想法,我就决定了我实际想要放在最终幻灯片中的内容。

And I think this is like an example of what the role of the PM still is today. It's like Claude is a great brainstorming partner. It's able to synthesize a massive amount of information really quickly and present all of the possibilities to you.

我认为这就是产品经理今天仍然扮演的角色的一个例子。Claude 是一个很好的头脑风暴伙伴。它能够非常快速地综合大量信息并向你展示所有的可能性。

But the role of the PM is still to make the end decision of okay what should belong in the final product.

但产品经理的角色仍然是做最终决定,决定什么应该属于最终产品。

So for this what I ended up deciding was that I wanted the talk to cover the progression from making local tasks successful to making every PR green to like helping engineers land more PRs and for each of these which demo would be the most compelling and then after this decision about the outline Codeium just like went off for a few hours and built

所以对于这个,我最终决定的是,我希望演讲涵盖从让本地任务成功,到让每个 PR 都通过,再到帮助工程师提交更多 PR 的进展过程,并且对于每一个阶段,哪个演示会最有说服力,然后在做出关于大纲的决定之后,Codeium 就自己跑去花了几个小时构建——

The whole slide deck.

整个幻灯片。

This is so awesome. What an awesome part of the job to not have to do anymore. And it feels like you're talking to essentially a deck designer that also has like actual knowledge about what you've worked on and can make it actually the content what you want it to be, not just make it look really nice.

这太棒了。工作中不用再做这部分真是太好了。感觉你基本上是在和一个幻灯片设计师对话,而且它实际上了解你做过的工作,可以让内容真正成为你想要的样子,而不仅仅是让它看起来很漂亮。

How did you do the design system piece? How does that work? How does it know the design system of Anthropic?

你是怎么做设计系统这部分的?这是怎么工作的?它怎么知道 Anthropic 的设计系统?

So what I did for this is we actually already have like a standardized deck that we use across all of our external engagements. And so I just gave Claude access to that. And so it's able to see like what colors we use, what fonts we use, the different kinds of—

我做的是,我们实际上已经有一个标准化的幻灯片模板,用于我们所有的对外活动。所以我就给了 Claude 访问权限。这样它就能看到我们使用什么颜色、什么字体、不同种类的——

What's it called? Like slide formats that are possible. And so it has like 20 of these example slides.

叫什么来着?就是可能的幻灯片格式。所以它有大约 20 个这样的示例幻灯片。

Give an example. Got it. So you like upload here's our template work from—

举个例子。明白了。所以你就像上传「这是我们的模板,按照这个来做」——

This.

对。

Yeah, you can also connect to like your Figma MCP if you have your slide format saved there and it can pull that in.

是的,你也可以连接到你的 Figma MCP,如果你把幻灯片格式保存在那里,它可以把那个拉进来。

Along those lines, something I'm always curious about is what's kind of in your stack of tools as a PM at Anthropic—obviously Claude, Code, and co-work and all the Anthropic tools. What else are you using? Slack you mentioned? Is there anything else?

沿着这个思路,我一直很好奇的是,作为 Anthropic 的产品经理,你的工具栈里有什么——显然有 Claude、Code 和 Cowork 以及所有 Anthropic 的工具。你还在用什么?你提到了 Slack?还有别的吗?

So my stack is pretty heavily Claude, Code, co-work. Anthropic largely runs on Slack. I feel like it's like the core OS of our company and day-to-day. A lot of—I would say maybe 30% of my time is pushing the boundaries of what co-work can do so that I have a very strong sense of what we're not good at. And I spend a lot of time talking with the model to understand why it makes

我的工具栈主要是 Claude、Code 和 co-work。Anthropic 公司基本上是靠 Slack 运转的,感觉它就像是我们公司的核心操作系统,贯穿日常工作。我大概有 30% 的时间在探索 co-work 的边界能力,这样我就能清楚地知道我们哪些方面还不够好。我花很多时间和模型对话,想理解它为什么会犯

Mistakes that it does. We actually have a lot of internal tools that we make.

那些错误。其实我们内部做了很多工具。

Like I think one of the things that Claude has really unlocked for our entire company is it really lowers the barrier to making any custom app that you want.

我觉得 Claude 给整个公司带来的一个重要改变是,它真正降低了制作任何定制应用的门槛。

And so we've seen this surge in personalized work software that people are building for custom use cases instead of using tools that don't perfectly fit the use case.

所以我们看到公司里涌现出大量个性化的工作软件,大家针对特定场景开发工具,而不是凑合使用那些不太合适的现成工具。

I got to hear more. What are some examples? What are things you've built or other people built that are really popular and useful?

我得多听听。有什么具体例子吗?你或者其他人做了哪些特别受欢迎、特别实用的东西?

One of the sales folks on Claude, he realized he was making these repetitive decks over and over and over again.

Claude 团队有个做销售的同事,他发现自己在反复制作类似的演示文稿。

And so he actually has this web app that he built with the examples of the core Claude decks that we know work well.

于是他做了一个网页应用,里面有我们知道效果很好的核心 Claude 演示文稿模板。

So like a 101, 201, and mastering Claude.

比如入门版、进阶版和精通 Claude 版。

And then he has a way to input specific customer context that pulls from Salesforce.

然后他设计了一个输入界面,可以从 Salesforce 拉取特定客户的背景信息。

From Gong that pulls from other notes so that we can customize the decks for specific customers.

从 Gong 以及其他笔记里提取信息,这样我们就能为特定客户定制演示文稿。

And so it'll pull out things like, okay, this customer is using like Bedrock or Claude for Enterprise or Console, which affects what features are available to them.

系统会提取出这样的信息:这个客户用的是 Bedrock 还是 Claude for Enterprise 还是 Console,这会影响他们能用哪些功能。

It will pull out things like, okay, this customer is concerned about like the code review stage of the SDLC.

系统还会提取出:这个客户关注软件开发生命周期中的代码审查阶段。

And so we'll add a slide about our code review features there.

那我们就会加一页关于代码审查功能的幻灯片。

It'll pull out things like, okay, this customer needs to be like HIPAA compliant or needs XYZ security controls.

系统还会识别出:这个客户需要符合 HIPAA 合规要求,或者需要某些特定的安全控制。

And so we'll make sure to add a slide or two in their deck about that.

那我们就会确保在他们的演示文稿里加上一两页关于这方面的内容。

And then for example, if this is a customer that's on Vertex or Bedrock and doesn't want to use Claude for Enterprise, then we'll just take out some of the slides that are Claude for Enterprise only features.

再比如,如果客户用的是 Vertex 或 Bedrock,不想用 Claude for Enterprise,那我们就会把那些只有 Claude for Enterprise 才有的功能页面删掉。

And so normally this is like manual work that could take 20 to 30 minutes, and so people either like spend that

通常这种手工操作要花 20 到 30 分钟,所以大家要么花时间去做,

Time doing it or they'll just decide not to do it and use the general deck. With this it takes like a few seconds and you get a tailored deck.

要么就干脆不做,直接用通用版本。有了这个工具,几秒钟就能生成一份定制化的演示文稿。

What's interesting about it is like Slack is like the tool that nobody's—it's just like nobody's trying to create their own. Slack just continues to win and it's just like the way you describe it is kind of the OS of so many companies.

有意思的是,Slack 这个工具没人想去——就是没人试图自己做一个。Slack 就这样一直赢下去,就像你说的,它已经成为很多公司的操作系统。

It's so interesting like people talk about Salesforce as just like SaaS. We don't need SaaS software anymore. We're going to build our own. It's like Slack is a durable tool that nobody wants to try to compete with and build a better version.

特别有意思的是,大家都在说 Salesforce 只是 SaaS 软件,我们不再需要 SaaS 了,我们要自己做。但 Slack 是个持久耐用的工具,没人想去竞争或者做个更好的版本。

I think it's pretty important communications infrastructure and I think they do the core task of helping everyone get real-time updates incredibly well.

我觉得它是很重要的通信基础设施,而且他们在帮助所有人获取实时更新这个核心任务上做得非常出色。

Yeah. Like people hate on Slack, but it's really great at what it's trying to do and like the most cutting edge teams are hooked on it. So interesting.

是的。虽然有人吐槽 Slack,但它在自己要做的事情上真的很优秀,而且最前沿的团队都离不开它。很有意思。

Yeah, and I also love how easy they've made it to customize it. And so we love making Slack bots, and this kind of hackability means that we're able to integrate with Slack the way that we want to. So really appreciate Slack's work on that.

对,我也很喜欢他们把定制化做得这么简单。所以我们很喜欢做 Slack 机器人,这种可定制性意味着我们能按自己想要的方式与 Slack 集成。真的很感谢 Slack 在这方面的工作。

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Okay. So you talked about all these different teams and how they use Claude Code and Copilot to operate. Which teams do you find other than engineering? I imagine engineering is the biggest token spender, but if not that'd be really interesting. What's kind of like the second place function right now for tokens?

好的。你提到了所有这些不同的团队以及他们如何使用 Claude Code 和 Copilot 来工作。除了工程团队之外,你发现哪些团队用得多?我想工程团队应该是最大的 token 消耗方,但如果不是的话那就很有意思了。目前 token 使用量排第二的职能部门是什么?

Oh, applied AI is amazing at pushing the boundaries of what Claude Code and Copilot can do. A lot of our applied AI team

哦,应用 AI 团队在推动 Claude Code 和 Copilot 能力边界方面做得非常出色。我们应用 AI 团队的很多成员

spends time with our customers helping them adopt our API. And so sometimes our applied team will for example make prototypes on behalf of these customers which Claude Code makes so much faster than it used to be.

会花时间帮助客户采用我们的 API。所以有时候我们的应用团队会为这些客户制作原型,而 Claude Code 让这个过程比以前快得多。

They also have the dual goal of needing to manage a lot of customer comms, a lot of like customer inbound and historical context call notes.

他们还有一个双重目标,就是需要管理大量的客户沟通、客户咨询以及历史背景和通话记录。

And so they're both extremely heavy on co-work and on Claude Code.

所以他们在 Cowork 和 Claude Code 上的使用都非常频繁。

And just to understand applied AI, is that like is that like forward deployed engineering sort of role? Like what do they how would you how would most people describe what the applied AI team is doing?

我想理解一下应用 AI 团队,这是不是类似前置部署工程师那种角色?大多数人会怎么描述应用 AI 团队在做什么?

Yeah, it's helping our customers adopt the latest API and model features across their company both for powering their company's products and also for internal acceleration.

是的,就是帮助我们的客户在整个公司范围内采用最新的 API 和模型功能,既用于驱动他们公司的产品,也用于内部提效。

Got it. So it's like customer success go-to-market-y kind of like forward deployed engineering sort of.

明白了。所以有点像客户成功、市场拓展类的前置部署工程师那种感觉。

Exactly. It's like a very technical go-to-market person.

没错。就像是技术能力很强的市场拓展人员。

Got it. Okay. Awesome. So you're saying that might be the second org that uses the most tokens.

明白了。好的,很棒。所以你是说这可能是使用 token 第二多的部门。

Yeah. And then we also see them pushing the boundaries of what Cowork can do. So for example, a lot of these folks cover multiple customers and in any given day can have like five to ten customer engagements on a high day.

对。然后我们还看到他们在推动 Cowork 能做什么的边界。比如说,这些人中很多都负责多个客户,在繁忙的日子里一天可能会有五到十次客户对接。

And so what they often use Cowork to do is the night before they'll ask it to summarize, okay, what are all my customer meetings that are coming up the next day?

所以他们经常用 Cowork 做的事情是,前一天晚上让它总结一下,好,我第二天有哪些客户会议要开?

What are all the things that this customer has asked me for? What's top of mind for them? What are the action items from the past meetings? And Cowork will just put together this dossier, this brief of what they should be aware of going into the next meeting. And Cowork can also research answers, so if a

这个客户向我提出了哪些要求?他们最关心什么?之前会议中有哪些待办事项?然后 Cowork 就会整理出这份档案,这份简报,告诉他们进入下次会议前应该了解什么。Cowork 还可以研究答案,所以如果

Customer asked, okay, when is feature X going to launch? CoWork can help the PM person research through Slack to get the latest ETA, add that to the notes so that during the customer call the PM person has the absolute latest. And these are just workflows that people are building for themselves and sharing with other people on their team.

客户问,好,功能 X 什么时候上线?Cowork 可以帮助产品经理通过 Slack 搜索获取最新的预计时间,把它加到笔记里,这样在客户电话会议期间,产品经理就能掌握最新信息。这些都是人们为自己构建的工作流程,然后分享给团队里的其他人。

So cool. Something that kind of, this question, this trend, I don't know, question topic comes up a lot recently, which is token spend exceeding people's salary, where people just use AI and it costs more than how much they're making. Are there any numbers floating around Anthropic of just like how much token spend, say engineers spend, I don't know, a month, a day, PMs, anything like that?

太酷了。有个话题,这个问题,这个趋势,我不知道该怎么说,最近经常被提起,就是 token 支出超过了员工工资,人们使用 AI 的成本比他们的收入还高。Anthropic 内部有没有一些数据,比如工程师一个月、一天花多少 token,产品经理呢,有这类数据吗?

It is clear to us that as the models get better, people delegate far more tasks to it and they spend a lot more hours in tools like Claude Code and CoWork. And so we do see the token cost per engineer or...

我们很清楚的是,随着模型变得更好,人们会把更多任务委托给它,他们在 Claude Code 和 Cowork 这类工具上花的时间也多得多。所以我们确实看到每个工程师或者

Like per any knowledge worker increase, every time that there's a model jump or like a substantial product improvement.

每个知识工作者的 token 成本在增加,每次有模型升级或者产品有重大改进的时候都会这样。

I think it's still much lower than what the average engineer salary is, but we see the percentage increasing over time.

我觉得这个成本仍然远低于工程师的平均工资,但我们看到这个百分比随着时间在增长。

It's such an interesting—like we talked about how you have access to the most cutting edge models and other advantages of working at Anthropic. I believe you guys have basically unlimited tokens. You can use as much as you want. Is that right?

这真的很有意思——就像我们讨论过的,你们可以使用最前沿的模型,还有在 Anthropic 工作的其他优势。我相信你们基本上有无限的 token。你们想用多少就能用多少。对吗?

We can use a lot of tokens. Some people do run into limits, so...

我们可以使用很多 token。有些人确实会遇到限制,所以...

Okay, there's a limit. Okay, Baris, shut it down. Okay.

好吧,还是有限制的。好的,Baris,别用了。好吧。

Like, it's so interesting how many advantages come from having the most advanced model. It's such an interesting flywheel that starts to kick in.

真的很有意思,拥有最先进的模型能带来多少优势。这是一个非常有意思的飞轮效应,开始发挥作用了。

I think we also believe a lot in empowering our internal teams to build as fast as possible. And we also trust that everyone understands how much capacity that serving these...

我认为我们非常相信赋能内部团队,让他们能够尽可能快地构建产品。同时我们也信任每个人都理解为这些模型提供服务的成本有多高...

Models truly cost, and we trust our team to use the tokens responsibly. So it's very frowned upon to waste tokens, but we do trust individuals to make that judgment call.

真正的成本是多少,我们相信团队会负责任地使用 token。所以浪费 token 是非常不被认可的行为,但我们确实信任个人能做出正确的判断。

Awesome. Coming back to the PM role, we talked a little bit about this, but I think this will be really interesting for people to hear. Just what I want to understand is what do you think are the kind of emerging skills that PMs need to develop, or that AI companies most look for when they're hiring PMs these days?

很好。回到 PM 这个角色,我们之前聊过一点,但我觉得这个话题对大家会很有意思。我想了解的是,你认为 PM 需要培养哪些新兴技能,或者说 AI 公司在招聘 PM 时最看重什么?

I think the hardest skill is being able to define what the product should look like a month from now. I think there's a lot of ambiguity in what models are capable of in that timeline and how user behavior will change.

我认为最难的技能是能够定义一个月后产品应该是什么样子。因为在这个时间线内,模型的能力会如何发展、用户行为会如何变化,都存在很大的不确定性。

But I think there are patterns that the best PMs can see based on how users are pushing the limits of the existing product, and the best PMs can sense that.

但我认为最优秀的 PM 能够看到一些模式,基于用户如何突破现有产品的极限,最好的 PM 能够感知到这一点。

Can set a direction and can steadily execute towards it and change the path if the model capabilities are much better than or worse than what they had originally expected.

能够设定方向并稳步执行,如果模型能力比最初预期的好得多或差得多,也能够调整路径。

I think it is very hard to be the right amount of AGI-pilled because I think everyone can see this future where the models are extremely smart and can do almost everything, in which case you actually don't need that complicated a product.

我认为很难把握对 AGI 的信念程度,因为每个人都能看到这样一个未来:模型会变得极其聪明,几乎什么都能做,在那种情况下,你其实不需要那么复杂的产品。

You can actually just have a text box again where you tell the model what you want, and it's so smart that it can add any tool or add any integration that it needs to get the job done.

你实际上只需要一个文本框,告诉模型你想要什么,它足够聪明,可以添加任何需要的工具或集成来完成任务。

It knows when it's uncertain and can ask clarifying questions. It's kind of very easy to build the product for the super AGI strong model.

它知道自己什么时候不确定,可以提出澄清性的问题。为超级 AGI 强模型构建产品其实是很容易的。

I think the hard thing is figuring out for the current model: How do you elicit the maximum capability? How do you help users get onto the

我认为困难的是弄清楚对于当前的模型:如何激发出最大的能力?如何帮助用户进入

The golden path? How do you guide users to interact with the model's strengths and patch its weaknesses? This skill is pretty rare.

黄金路径?如何引导用户与模型的优势互动,并弥补它的弱点?这种技能是相当罕见的。

And how do you build that skill? Is it just using each, basically understanding the limits of each model, having—you talked about taste—understanding, having taste into what the model maybe is capable of, what it's great and not great at, where it's changed?

那你如何培养这种技能呢?是不是就是使用每个模型,基本上就是理解每个模型的局限性,拥有——你提到的品味——理解、拥有对模型可能能做什么、擅长什么不擅长什么、哪里发生了变化的品味?

I think it's spending a ton of time talking and using the model. One of the things I really like to do is to ask the model to introspect on its own behaviors. So sometimes when I notice that the model does something unexpected, like for example, there are situations where the model will make a front-end change and run tests but not actually use the UI. It's actually pretty useful to ask the model to reflect on why it did this. And sometimes they'll say that, hey, there was

我认为是花大量时间与模型对话和使用模型。我真正喜欢做的一件事是让模型对自己的行为进行反思。所以有时当我注意到模型做了一些意外的事情,比如说,有些情况下模型会做前端更改并运行测试,但实际上不使用 UI。这时让模型反思它为什么这样做是非常有用的。有时它们会说,嘿,有

Like something confusing in the system prompt, or I didn't realize that the front-end verification was like part of this task, or hey, I delegated the verification to this sub-agent and the sub-agent didn't do the test and I didn't check its work.

系统提示中有些令人困惑的地方,或者我没有意识到前端验证是这个任务的一部分,或者嘿,我把验证委托给了这个子代理,子代理没有做测试,而我没有检查它的工作。

A lot of times, just like being very curious about why the model made the decision that it did will show you what misled it so that you can fix the harness in order to close this gap.

很多时候,对模型为什么做出这个决定保持好奇心,会让你看到是什么误导了它,这样你就可以修复框架来缩小这个差距。

The other thing that helps is to figure out who are the users who you trust the most to give you accurate feedback about the model.

另一件有帮助的事情是找出你最信任的用户,他们能给你关于模型的准确反馈。

Usually there's like a handful of people who are much better than others at articulating what makes a specific model or model harness combination good.

通常有少数几个人在阐述是什么让特定的模型或模型框架组合变得优秀方面,比其他人强得多。

And there's a lot of people who will give you feedback, but not everyone's feedback is as qualified.

会有很多人给你反馈,但不是每个人的反馈都同样有价值。

And so finding a group of those like five people you trust is really important for getting very fast

所以找到你信任的那五个人组成的小组,对于获得非常快速的

Feedback. I think the third thing that is useful but not everyone loves doing is building evals. You don't need to build hundreds of evals for them to be useful. Just building 10 great evals is important for helping the team quantify what the goal is and what their progress towards it is and what they're missing. And so I think evals is this underappreciated thing that more PMs, more engineers should be working on.

反馈非常重要。我认为第三件有用但不是每个人都喜欢做的事情是构建评估。你不需要构建数百个评估才能让它们有用。只需构建 10 个优秀的评估,就能帮助团队量化目标是什么、他们朝着目标的进展如何、以及他们缺少什么。所以我认为评估是一个被低估的东西,更多的 PM、更多的工程师应该在这上面投入精力。

We've covered evals a bunch. There's this trend of just like that is the future of product management is writing evals because essentially it's what does success look like? Okay, cool. Let me actually concretely define it and then we'll know. How much of your time are you spending writing evals would you say?

我们已经讨论了很多关于评估的内容。有一个趋势就是,这就是产品管理的未来——编写评估,因为本质上就是成功是什么样子?好的,让我实际具体地定义它,然后我们就会知道。你会说你有多少时间花在编写评估上?

I think the importance of evals varies a bit based on the feature that you're working on and or like what the problem you're trying to solve is. So there are a lot of folks on our team who do spend

我认为评估的重要性会根据你正在开发的功能或者你试图解决的问题而有所不同。所以我们团队有很多人确实花费

A lot of time working on eval. Have a small pod of folks who collaborate very closely with research to more precisely understand our code behaviors and what the largest areas of improvement are and trying to measure those pretty concretely.

大量时间在评估上。有一小组人与研究团队非常紧密地合作,更精确地理解我们的代码行为以及最大的改进领域在哪里,并试图相当具体地衡量这些。

I personally jump into evals when there's a feature that I think needs a bit more product definition and often the output of this is okay here are like five evals that I made, this is how you run them, these are the ones that succeed and these are the ones that don't, and this is like the prompt that I've used to increase the success rate.

我个人在有一个我认为需要更多产品定义的功能时会投入到评估中,通常输出是这样的:好的,这是我做的五个评估,这是如何运行它们的,这些是成功的,这些是不成功的,这是我用来提高成功率的提示。

It varies a lot though based on the exact feature. Not every feature needs it but I think features such as memory benefit a lot from this.

但这在很大程度上取决于具体的功能。不是每个功能都需要评估,但我认为像记忆这样的功能从中受益很多。

Point you made about people being very good at evaluating models so interesting. It's almost like a human eval of just like okay they understand where it's spiking or it's maybe lacking. Is there

你提到的那个观点很有意思——人们非常擅长评估模型。这几乎就像是一种人工评估,他们能理解模型在哪些方面表现突出,哪些方面可能有所欠缺。是否有

Anyone specific that you want to shout out that's very good at this?

在这方面有没有特别想表扬的人?

Uh, two people who I think are incredible at this are, um, one Amanda who definitely molds Claude's character.

嗯,我觉得有两个人在这方面特别出色,一位是 Amanda,她确实塑造了 Claude 的性格特质。

It's just like such a hard role because the task is so ambiguous.

这真的是一个很难的角色,因为任务本身就很模糊。

Even coding is easier because you can verify the success, whereas crafting the character requires a very strong sense of conviction in who Claude should be.

甚至编程都更容易一些,因为你可以验证成功与否,而塑造性格则需要对 Claude 应该是什么样子有非常强烈的信念。

And I think she has like an incredible ability to not only mold the character, but also to like articulate what the goals are, what the character, what's successful and what's not.

我觉得她不仅有出色的能力去塑造这个性格,还能清晰地阐述目标是什么,这个性格是什么样的,什么算成功什么算不成功。

The other group of people who I really trust is just like the Claude Code team.

另一群我非常信任的人就是 Claude Code 团队。

Um, so we often have team lunches and whenever there's a new model we're testing.

我们经常有团队午餐,每当我们在测试新模型的时候。

One of the fastest ways for us to get feedback is to just like at these team lunches just like go to every single person and just be like, "Hey, what is your vibe on the model?"

我们获取反馈最快的方式之一就是在这些团队午餐上,逐个问每个人:「嘿,你对这个模型的感觉怎么样?」

And oftentimes

而且很多时候

We'll get feedback like, "Okay, this model is not fully explaining its thinking. It's too abrupt," or like, "Hey, this model just loves writing a ton of memories, but we're not sure if the memories are high quality or not," or like some people will notice that, "Okay, this model loves to test itself," which is great, or like, "This model isn't testing itself enough."

我们会得到这样的反馈:「好吧,这个模型没有完全解释它的思考过程,太突兀了」,或者「嘿,这个模型就是喜欢写一大堆记忆,但我们不确定这些记忆质量高不高」,或者有些人会注意到「好的,这个模型喜欢自我测试」,这很好,或者「这个模型自我测试得不够」。

So that informs what data we look at to verify, okay, is this a larger pattern. So we have a ton of data, but it is very hard to extract insights, and so the feedback from this group helps us inform, okay, what are the hypotheses we want to test, and then we're able to extract data to test that.

所以这会告诉我们应该看哪些数据来验证,好吧,这是不是一个更大的模式。我们有大量数据,但很难提取洞察,所以这个团队的反馈帮助我们明确,好的,我们想测试哪些假设,然后我们就能提取数据来测试。

This point you made about the character of Claude—I had Ben Mann on the podcast, co-founder, and he talked about this, just like the character, the constitution of Claude is such an important part of Claude, and I didn't realize until afterwards just like, like, people like—

你提到的关于 Claude 性格的这一点——我采访过联合创始人 Ben Mann,他也谈到了这个,就是性格、Claude 的宪法是 Claude 非常重要的一部分,我直到后来才意识到,就像,人们——

With OpenClaude actually, one of the reasons people are sad is like the personality of Claude is, because Claude's personality is so good and fun and interesting unlike other models, and the way he put it is the personality is what makes Claude so good at so many things.

对于 OpenClaude,人们感到难过的原因之一就是 Claude 的个性,因为 Claude 的个性非常好、有趣且引人入胜,不像其他模型,他的说法是,个性正是让 Claude 在很多方面如此出色的原因。

It feels like this trivial side thing. Okay, it's going to be funny and interesting and talk in a fun way, but it's like so core to the success of Claude.

这感觉像是一个微不足道的附带事项。好吧,它会很有趣、很吸引人、用有趣的方式说话,但这其实是 Claude 成功的核心。

Is there anything you can share about just like what people may not understand about why the character, as you described, and the personality is so key?

关于为什么性格,如你所说的,和个性如此关键,有什么可以分享的吗?人们可能不理解的?

When you reflect on everyone you've worked with, there's just some people where you're like, I really like their energy. Like, I really like their vibe.

当你回想与你共事过的每个人,总有一些人让你觉得,我真的很喜欢他们的能量,很喜欢他们的氛围。

And when people think about Claude and Claude Code, this is one of the things that people bring up the most where they just really love that Claude is like it's

当人们想到 Claude 和 Claude Code 时,这是人们最常提到的事情之一,他们真的很喜欢 Claude 的那种

It's like lighthearted and fun, but it also is extremely competent at your task.

轻松有趣,但同时在你的任务上又极其胜任。

People really like that Claude's low ego.

人们真的很喜欢 Claude 的低姿态。

And so if you tell it, hey, you did this thing wrong, it's like truly sorry. It's like, oh shoot, like, thanks for telling me. Like, let me fix it. Let's work together.

所以如果你告诉它,嘿,你这件事做错了,它会真诚地道歉。它会说,哦糟糕,谢谢你告诉我,让我修正一下,我们一起来解决。

It's also very positive.

它也非常积极正面。

So if you're feeling like, oh, this is like an insurmountable task, I don't know how to get started, Claude is like, okay, it's okay. These are like the steps that I think we should take. Like, do you want me to get started on it for you?

所以如果你觉得,哦,这是一个难以逾越的任务,我不知道如何开始,Claude 会说,好的,没关系,这些是我认为我们应该采取的步骤,你想让我先开始吗?

I think part of what makes a great coworker is this positivity, this like bias towards action, this ability to give you like earnest feedback, not just agreeing with every single thing that you say.

我认为成为一个优秀同事的部分原因就是这种积极性,这种行动导向的倾向,这种给你真诚反馈的能力,而不是对你说的每一件事都表示同意。

And so we try to imbue this into Claude because we think it makes it a lot more enjoyable to work with.

所以我们试图将这些注入到 Claude 中,因为我们认为这会让与它一起工作变得更加愉快。

There's something I want to come back to. You talked about how when new models

有件事我想回过头来聊聊。你提到每当新模型

Come out, you often have to kind of revisit things you've built. That's so interesting and so like frustrating, maybe just like, oh god damn it, we shipped this thing, now we have to rethink it.

发布时,你们经常需要重新审视已经构建的功能。这真的很有意思,但可能也挺让人沮丧的,就像「天哪,我们刚发布了这个功能,现在又得重新思考了」。

Talk about just like how often you have to come back with a new model and you're like, okay, we have to redo this product that we launched a few months ago.

聊聊你们多久需要因为新模型而回过头来,然后想「好吧,我们得重做几个月前发布的这个产品了」。

A lot of the changes that we make with a new model is removing features that are no longer needed.

我们在新模型发布后做的很多改动,其实是移除那些不再需要的功能。

So a lot of times we add features to the product as a crutch for the model because it's not naturally doing it itself.

很多时候我们给产品添加功能,是作为模型的「拐杖」,因为模型本身还做不到这些事。

So the classic example for this is a to-do list.

这方面的经典例子就是待办清单功能。

When we first launched Claude Code, people would ask it to do these large refactors and Claude Code would say, "Okay, cool. I need to change these like 20 call sites," and it would go and change five of them and then stop.

我们刚推出 Claude Code 时,人们会让它做大规模重构,Claude Code 会说「好的,我需要修改这 20 个调用点」,然后它会改完 5 个就停下来了。

And then we were like, "Okay, how do we like force it to remember to get every single one of them?"

然后我们就想「好吧,怎么才能强制它记住要把每一个都改完呢?」

these 20?" And so Sid on our team was like, "Okay, what if we just think about what a human would do?

这 20 个调用点?」于是我们团队的 Sid 说「要不我们想想人类会怎么做?

So a human would make a list of everything that they need to change.

人类会列一个清单,把所有需要修改的地方都列出来。

Similar to how in VS Code you would look up all the call sites and it would be a list on the left side and you would go through them one by one and replace all.

就像在 VS Code 里,你会查找所有调用点,它们会显示在左侧列表里,然后你逐个检查并全部替换。

How do we give this kind of tool to Claude?

我们怎么给 Claude 提供这样的工具呢?

And so he added a to-do list and we found that with that Claude was actually able to fix all these 20 call sites.

于是他添加了一个待办清单功能,我们发现有了它,Claude 确实能够修复所有这 20 个调用点。

But then with Opus 4 and later models we realized that we didn't need to force it to use this to-do list.

但后来到了 Opus 4 和更新的模型,我们发现不需要强制它使用这个待办清单了。

It would naturally use it itself.

它会自然而然地自己使用待办清单。

For the earlier models, we had to keep reminding it, hey, did you finish everything on the to-do list?

对于早期的模型,我们必须不断提醒它「嘿,你完成待办清单上的所有事项了吗?」

You can't finish until you're done with everything on the to-do list.

「在完成清单上的所有事项之前,你不能结束任务。」

And for the later models, without prompting, it just naturally thinks to do everything on the to-do list.

而对于后来的模型,不用提示,它就会自然地想到要完成待办清单上的所有事项。

These days, the to-do

现在,待办清单

List is still nice to have as like a user, because then you can more clearly see what Claude is working on.

作为用户体验来说还是不错的,因为你可以更清楚地看到 Claude 正在做什么。

But honestly, it's such a deemphasized part of the product right now that the model may use it, the model may not use it. It's like really not necessary for it to make thorough changes anymore.

但说实话,它现在在产品中的重要性已经大大降低了,模型可能会用它,也可能不用。它对于模型做出全面的修改已经不是必需的了。

I forget who said this on the podcast that the model will eat your harness for breakfast. And what I'm hearing here is essentially you remove things over time that you've had to add on top of the model where it was not operating the way you wanted. And essentially as the models get smarter, it just becomes simpler and simpler for it to do the thing you want it to do.

我忘了是谁在播客里说过「模型会把你的脚手架当早餐吃掉」。我现在听到的本质上就是,你们会逐渐移除那些为了让模型按预期工作而不得不添加的东西。随着模型变得越来越智能,让它做你想做的事情就变得越来越简单。

Yeah. We can remove a lot of prompting interventions every time the model gets smarter. And we actually do this every time we launch a model. We read through the entire system prompt and we reflect on, okay, for each of these sections, does the model really

是的。每次模型变得更智能,我们都能移除很多提示干预。实际上每次发布新模型时我们都会这样做。我们会通读整个系统提示词,然后反思「好,对于每一个部分,模型真的

Need this reminder anymore? And if not, we'll remove it.

还需要这个提醒吗?」如果不需要,我们就会移除它。

The most exciting thing that new models unlock though is just like entirely new features.

不过新模型解锁的最令人兴奋的事情,还是那些全新的功能。

So there's a lot of features that we've been testing out with prior models and the accuracy wasn't high enough for us to want to launch them.

我们一直在用之前的模型测试很多功能,但准确率不够高,所以没有推出。

And so one example of this is code review.

代码审查就是一个例子。

We tried to build a code review product a few times and we've launched like simpler versions of code review which is the slash code review command in the past and it was only with the most recent models that we felt like okay this code review is so good that our engineering team relies on this code review to pass before we merge PRs and we found that this was we've always dreamed of Quad being able to be a reliable code reviewer that can actually that we can like confidently feel catches the majority of bugs.

我们尝试过好几次构建代码审查产品,之前推出过一些简化版本,比如 slash code review 命令。直到最新的模型出现,我们才觉得这个代码审查足够好,好到我们工程团队在合并 PR 之前必须要通过这个审查。我们一直梦想 Quad 能成为可靠的代码审查员,能真正捕捉到大部分 bug,让我们有信心依赖它。

And it was only with like Opus 4.5 and 4.6 and Sonnet 4.6 that we felt like okay we are now able to like run multiple

直到 Opus 4.5、4.6 和 Sonnet 4.6 出现,我们才觉得现在可以同时运行多个

Code review agents simultaneously traverse the entirety of the codebase and synthesize a set of real issues that an engineer needs to address before merge.

代码审查 agent,让它们遍历整个代码库,然后综合出工程师在合并前需要解决的真实问题。

And so this is a new capability that the newest models have unlocked.

这是最新模型解锁的新能力。

This is another trend that is very common on this podcast: build something that will possibly be possible in the next six months, be kind of at the edge of what's working, and then it'll catch up and then it'll be an amazing product and you'll be ahead of everyone.

这是这个播客里很常见的一个趋势:构建一个未来六个月可能实现的东西,处在刚刚能用的边缘,然后等技术跟上来,它就会变成一个很棒的产品,而你已经领先所有人了。

Yeah, exactly. It's pretty important to build products that don't necessarily work yet so that you know what is missing for this product to work, and then with the newest model you can just swap it in to the prototype you've already made and see, okay, does this new model close that gap.

没错。构建那些暂时还不能用的产品很重要,这样你就知道这个产品要能用还缺什么,然后等最新模型出来,你就可以直接把它换到你已经做好的原型里,看看这个新模型能不能填补那个差距。

How much are you able to speak to just kind of where things are going with

你能透露多少关于

Claude and Cowork as kind of the vision of it? I imagine you don't want to give away too much about the goal, but it feels like there's all these awesome features being added on top—dispatch control from phone and all these mobile app, all these things. What's kind of just like a way to understand the vision for all these things long term?

Claude 和 Cowork 未来发展方向的愿景?我猜你不想透露太多关于目标的信息,但感觉有很多很棒的功能在不断加入——手机调度控制、移动应用等等。怎么理解这些东西的长期愿景?

We think about this in terms of building blocks. So for both Claude Code and Cowork, the core building block is making individual tasks successful. So you want to produce some output, you give it a clear prompt description—is it able to consistently produce acceptable output that you're able to either merge or share with your colleagues or external audience?

我们从构建模块的角度来思考这个问题。对于 Claude Code 和 Cowork 来说,核心构建模块是让单个任务成功。你想产出某个结果,给它一个清晰的提示描述——它能不能持续产出可接受的输出,让你能够合并或者分享给同事或外部受众?

So the task is the core building block. As the models get smarter, the task success rate gets a lot higher. And then we see people moving towards doing multiple tasks at the same time. So multi-coding was this

所以任务是核心构建模块。随着模型变得更智能,任务成功率会大幅提高。然后我们看到人们开始同时做多个任务。所以 multi-coding 在

Big thing in towards the end of 2024 and it's only increased since then.

2024 年底成为一个大趋势,之后还在持续增长。

And so we see this as okay, great, one task works and now you can do like six tasks at a time.

我们的理解是,好,一个任务能成功了,现在你可以同时做六个任务。

As the models get even smarter, the way that we are extrapolating this is okay, next maybe you're going to run like 50 Claudes at a time or hundreds of Claudes at a time.

随着模型变得更智能,我们推断的方式是,接下来你可能会同时运行 50 个 Claude,或者几百个 Claude。

And so what is the infrastructure we need to build to enable that?

那我们需要构建什么样的基础设施来实现这一点?

At that point you're probably not going to run everything locally on your machine anymore.

到那时候你可能不会再在本地机器上运行所有东西了。

There's just like not enough RAM to do it.

根本没有足够的内存来做这件事。

And so we're thinking about how do we make it easier for you to manage all these?

所以我们在思考如何让你更容易管理所有这些?

These will probably run remotely.

这些可能会在远程运行。

How do we build the interface so that you as a human know which tasks you need to look into?

我们如何构建界面,让你作为人类知道哪些任务需要关注?

How do we make sure that the agent is fully verifying work so that when you look at a task and it says it's done, you can very quickly verify and fully trust that it is done to your spec?

我们如何确保 agent 完全验证工作,这样当你看到一个任务显示完成时,你可以很快验证并完全相信它确实按照你的要求完成了?

And how do we make

我们如何确保

Sure that this process is self-improving so that when you do see a task that isn't done to your liking, you can give it feedback and the model will know for every future run to incorporate that feedback so it never makes that mistake again.

这个过程是自我改进的,这样当你看到一个任务没有按你的要求完成时,你可以给它反馈,模型会在以后的每次运行中都融入这个反馈,这样它就不会再犯同样的错误。

So this is the progression that we're bringing our users along for.

这就是我们带领用户经历的进程。

There's a lot of people listening, a lot of product managers, a lot of maybe founders, a lot of other cross-functional folks listening. There's a lot of worry about just their role, just the future of their careers.

有很多人在听这期节目,其中有产品经理、创业者,还有其他跨职能岗位的从业者。大家都很担心自己的职位和职业前景。

What advice would you have for just people to not just survive this transition to this very AI-driven world, but to be really successful, to essentially just to thrive in this future?

对于如何在这个AI驱动的世界中不仅生存下来,还能真正取得成功、蓬勃发展,你有什么建议?

What are just like things people need to hear, need to be doing?

有哪些是大家需要听到的、需要去做的事情?

I think AI gives everybody a ton more leverage than they used to. And so I would push you towards anytime you

我认为AI给每个人带来了比以前多得多的杠杆效应。所以我建议你,每当意识到

Realize that you're doing some manual task multiple times, think about how you can use Claude Code, Copilot or other AI tools to automate that for you.

自己在重复做某个手动任务时,就想想如何用Claude Code、Copilot或其他AI工具来自动化完成。

Most people have like creative parts of their job that they absolutely love and then like tedious parts of their job that they really hate doing.

大多数人的工作中都有他们特别喜欢的创造性部分,也有他们真的很讨厌做的繁琐部分。

I think the beauty of AI is that it can do those tedious parts for you. It can learn from every time that you've done that manual task and generalize and then run it automatically so that you can focus on the creative parts and that means you can do a lot more than you used to be able to do.

AI的美妙之处在于它可以替你完成那些繁琐的部分。它能从你每次手动完成任务中学习,然后归纳总结并自动运行,这样你就能专注于创造性的工作,意味着你能完成比以前多得多的事情。

So I think my like immediate push for people is figure out the repetitive parts that you can pass to Claude. Iterate on those automations until the success rate is very high and then focus on okay what more can you be doing for your team for your product for your company that like people haven't had the bandwidth to pick up so far or like what is that like pet project that you always

所以我的直接建议是:找出那些可以交给Claude的重复性工作,不断迭代这些自动化流程直到成功率非常高,然后思考你还能为团队、产品或公司做些什么——那些之前大家一直没有精力去做的事,或者你一直想做的那个

thought the company should do that like you've never had bandwidth to do. If AI can take care of the grunt work, then you have this extra 20% time now that you might not have had before.

宠物项目,那些你一直觉得公司应该做但从来没有时间去做的事。如果AI能处理那些苦力活,你现在就有了以前没有的额外20%的时间。

So my push is to lean into these tools, hand off the work that you're not excited to do, figure out how it can accelerate you, and then as a result, you'll be able to do so much more.

所以我的建议是:积极使用这些工具,把你不想做的工作交出去,搞清楚它如何能加速你的工作,这样你就能完成多得多的事情。

Something core to what you just shared, which I fully agree with, is find problems to solve with AI. There's all this potential with all these tools can do. Some of the hard—like for a lot of people the hardest part is just like what should I actually do, and what you're saying here is just pay attention to things that you are doing constantly you can automate, pay attention to just like ideas that have been floating around that you haven't had time to do. It's basically like solve a problem for yourself is kind of the core advice there.

你刚才分享的核心观点我完全同意,就是:用AI找问题来解决。这些工具有很多潜力可以做很多事。对很多人来说最难的部分就是——我到底应该做什么?而你这里说的就是:留意那些你经常在做的、可以自动化的事情,留意那些一直在脑海中浮现但没时间做的想法。核心建议其实就是为自己解决问题。

Exactly. I would also push listeners towards focusing on bringing your automations from "okay, this is a cool concept" to like "hey, this actually works 100% of the time." Like sometimes I see users trying to automate something, getting it to like 90-95% accuracy and then giving up on it.

完全正确。我还建议听众们专注于把自动化从「好的,这个概念不错」提升到「嘿,这个真的能100%正常工作」。有时我看到用户尝试自动化某件事,做到90-95%的准确率就放弃了。

And if an automation doesn't work 100% of the time, it's not really an automation.

如果一个自动化不能100%正常工作,它就不算真正的自动化。

And that last 5 to 10% does take more time. Also, building the automation is often a lot slower than you doing it yourself.

而最后那5%到10%确实需要更多时间。而且,构建自动化往往比你自己做要慢得多。

I would encourage listeners to put in that time to scope some automation that you really want to get to 100%. Put in the elbow grease to teach it your preferences, to like give it feedback so that it can improve its skill so that it can get to that 100%.

我鼓励听众投入时间去规划一个你真正想做到100%的自动化。下功夫去教它你的偏好,给它反馈让它能提升技能,达到那个100%。

And then like really then you'll be able to rely on it. There's just not much value in a 95% automation.

然后你就真的能依赖它了。95%的自动化其实没什么价值。

I am super guilty of that.

我在这方面特别有罪。

Really good advice for me.

对我来说这是个很好的建议。

I am guilty of this too. I've been teaching it, I've been teaching Coworker to try to get me to inbox zero for Gmail, and it has not been—it has been very time consuming and it is definitely not there, as you probably realized.

我也有这个问题。我一直在教Coworker帮我把Gmail清理到收件箱零邮件,但一直没有——这个过程非常耗时,而且肯定还没达到目标,你可能也意识到了。

Yeah, funny enough that's exactly where my mind goes. I have this workflow I set up where every email I get, it looks for things that are spammy, which is just like all these like, "Hey, can I come on your podcast?" or "What about this one?" Like all these things I'm just like, I don't have time for these sorts of things. And I have it categorized into a folder called spammy. And it's just like it's 95% great, but then there's like, oh wow, I missed an email because it went in there. So this is a good push for me to like, I'm going to work on this. I'm going to get it to perfect.

是的,有意思的是我脑海中想到的正是这个。我设置了一个工作流,每封收到的邮件它都会查找垃圾内容,就是那些「嘿,我能上你的播客吗?」或者「这个怎么样?」之类的,我根本没时间处理这些事。我让它分类到一个叫spammy的文件夹里。它95%的时候都很好,但有时会出现,哇,我错过了一封邮件因为它被放进去了。所以这对我是个很好的推动,我要继续优化这个,把它做到完美。

Yeah. We also are working on making the flow for customizing these commands a...

是的。我们也在努力让自定义这些命令的流程变得

A lot easier because right now I think you have to know too many concepts. You have to know to define a skill. You have to know to use this skill and give it feedback. And then you have to know to tell Cowork to update the skill based on all the feedback that you gave. And then you also have to know where to read the skill to make sure that the feedback was incorporated the way that you want.

容易得多,因为现在我觉得你需要了解太多概念。你得知道如何定义一个技能,知道如何使用这个技能并给它反馈,然后你还得知道告诉Cowork根据你给的所有反馈来更新技能。然后你还得知道去哪里查看技能,确保反馈按你想要的方式被整合进去了。

It's also our job to make this flow really seamless so that it doesn't feel painful to do.

让这个流程真正无缝衔接、不让人感到痛苦,这也是我们的工作。

Amazing. Is there anything else, Cat, you wanted to share? Anything else you wanted to leave listeners with? Anything you wanted to double down on that we haven't already touched on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

太好了。Cat,还有什么想分享的吗?在我们进入非常激动人心的快问快答环节之前,有什么想留给听众的?有什么我们还没谈到、你想强调的吗?

I see a lot of people playing around with AI and building prototype apps and tinkering with building workflows. I would really push people towards building apps that you're actually using every single day because I think only

我看到很多人在玩AI、构建原型应用、尝试构建工作流。我真的建议大家去构建那些你每天实际在用的应用,因为我认为只有

Through that usage, are you actually getting the value? Like if you build a prototype app that isn't helping you get more done, then the AI isn't really adding value to your—

通过这种使用方式,你真的获得价值了吗?比如你做了一个原型应用,但它并没有帮你提高效率,那 AI 其实并没有给你带来真正的价值——

To your day.

对你的日常工作来说。

And there's only so much you learn from that when it's like, okay, I just one-shotted something. Oh, that's cool. And then you never come back to it. Like you're not learning a lot—

而且从这种体验中你能学到的也很有限,就是那种「好,我一次性搞定了某个东西,哦挺酷的」,然后就再也不碰了。这样你其实学不到什么——

And you're not getting much leverage from it—

你也没有从中获得多少杠杆效应——

And actual leverage. Yeah, that's such a good point.

真正的杠杆效应。对,这个观点太好了。

I also think there's a lot of people who spend a lot of time customizing their workflow. So there's like two ends of the spectrum. One is people who never customize or never build automations, but there's this polar opposite end of people who obsess around customizing their tool, like adding a ton of skills and—

我还觉得有很多人花大量时间定制他们的工作流。这就像光谱的两端,一端是从不定制、从不构建自动化的人,另一端则是那些痴迷于定制工具的人,比如添加大量技能和——

MCPs and these like workflow improvements, and I think sometimes that can even distract from your core goal of like launching some product or building some feature.

MCP 以及各种工作流改进,我觉得有时候这甚至会让你偏离核心目标,比如发布某个产品或开发某个功能。

I think there's a lot of fun in customizing and we definitely want to make our products very hackable so that you can make it work really well for you, but there is a limit to how much it's useful.

定制确实很有趣,我们也确实希望让产品非常可定制,这样你可以让它真正适合自己,但这种定制是有限度的。

And I think there's a camp of people who maybe spend so much time customizing that they're like not sleeping and not doing the like core task that they originally set out to do.

我觉得有一群人可能在定制上花了太多时间,以至于他们都不睡觉了,也没在做他们最初想做的核心任务。

I see a lot of that on Twitter, just like look at my setup, it's out of control, it's so optimized. Then what are you, what are you actually building? No, but my setup is so awesome, like it gets so much done.

我在 Twitter 上经常看到这种情况,就是「看我的配置,太疯狂了,优化得太好了」。然后你实际在做什么呢?「没啊,但我的配置超棒,能完成好多事」。

I think the simple setups actually work better.

我觉得简单的配置其实效果更好。

It's a power-up, getting to take level up a little bit.

这就像一个增益道具,让你稍微升个级。

Yeah. Yeah.

对,对。

There's this Karpathy tweet that just came out yesterday where he talked about this divide that's interesting between people that tried ChatGPT and Claude back in the day. It was like okay and they're like nah this is terrible and they kind of gave up on like what AI could do for them and they're just like so cynical of like no way it's not actually that big of a deal and then there's people that are using it to code essentially who see the full intense power of it and how good it is and people on both sides don't understand the other side and why they like how much they see the world and so your advice is really good here just like actually use it for real things and see how good it actually has gotten.

Karpathy 昨天发了条推文,讲了一个很有意思的分化现象,就是有些人当年试用 ChatGPT 和 Claude 时觉得「还行吧」,然后就觉得「这太糟糕了」,基本放弃了 AI 能为他们做什么,对此非常悲观,觉得「不可能,没那么厉害」;而另一群人用它来写代码,他们看到了它全部的强大力量,知道它有多好用。两边的人都不理解对方,不明白对方为什么会那样看待世界。所以你的建议真的很好,就是真正用它做实际的事情,看看它现在到底有多强。

Yeah I think the big shift is that the 2024 generation of products were chat-based and the current code generation of products is action-based.

对,我觉得最大的转变是 2024 年那一代产品是基于对话的,而现在这一代代码生成产品是基于行动的。

The big aha moment people have is when Claude can just do things on your behalf. It is an amazing feeling to know that the agent is capable of doing so much more than telling you what to do. The agent can actually just do it itself. And when people feel that, I think that's the eye-opening moment.

人们的顿悟时刻就是当 Claude 能代表你直接做事的时候。知道这个 agent 能做的远不止告诉你该做什么,它实际上可以自己去做,这种感觉太棒了。当人们体验到这一点时,我觉得那就是开眼的时刻。

Shout out to the Chrome extension, the Claude Chrome extension, which you can just watch it doing stuff and you'd be like, "Fill out this form for me," and it's like, "All right, here I go."

要夸一下 Chrome 扩展,就是 Claude 的 Chrome 扩展,你可以看着它做事,你说「帮我填这个表单」,它就「好的,我来了」。

Exactly.

没错。

Okay. Anything else before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

好的。在进入我们非常激动人心的快问快答环节之前,还有什么要补充的吗?

No, let's do it.

没有了,开始吧。

Let's do it. Kat, I've got five questions for you. Welcome to the lightning round. There's this animation that plays. I have to make sure to say it. Are you ready?

开始吧。Kat,我有五个问题要问你。欢迎来到快问快答环节。这里会播放一个动画,我得说一下。准备好了吗?

I'm ready.

准备好了。

First question, what are two or three

第一个问题,有哪两三本

Books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

你最常推荐给别人的书?

I really like How Asia Works. It's a story about economic development and what are the policies and governments that make long-lasting successful economies.

我很喜欢《亚洲是如何运作的》(How Asia Works)。这本书讲的是经济发展的故事,以及哪些政策和政府能造就长久成功的经济体。

The other book that I'm really into is The Technology Trap. So this is actually about the past few technology revolutions, so the Industrial Revolution and the computer revolution, and how this has affected workers.

我很喜欢的另一本书是《技术陷阱》。这本书讲的是过去几次技术革命,比如工业革命和计算机革命,以及这些革命如何影响了工人阶层。

The reason that I really like this is because I think there's a lot we can learn from history to make sure that this transition goes well.

我特别喜欢这本书的原因是,我认为我们可以从历史中学到很多东西,以确保这次技术转型能够顺利进行。

And maybe on a fun note, I really like The Paper Menagerie. It's just a book of short stories about coming of age and AI and self-discovery.

说点轻松的,我很喜欢《纸动物园》。这是一本短篇小说集,讲述了关于成长、人工智能和自我发现的故事。

Favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?

你最近很喜欢的电影或电视剧是什么?

I really like Drive to Survive. There's no deeper meaning to it. I just—

我很喜欢《极速求生》。没什么深层含义,就是——

There's just something very satisfying about people being so obsessed with like a singular engineering goal and just like the purity of their pursuit. And I also really love Free Solo, which is about Alex Honnold climbing El Capitan without a harness.

看到人们如此痴迷于一个单一的工程目标,以及他们追求的纯粹性,就是让人很满足。我也很喜欢《徒手攀岩》,讲的是 Alex Honnold 在没有安全绳的情况下攀登 El Capitan。

And I think similarly, it's just such a pure achievement to be able to climb this extremely challenging, dangerous route and to be able to have the mental focus to do it knowing that if you make a single mistake, you die.

我觉得同样地,能够攀登这条极具挑战性和危险性的路线,并且能够保持精神高度集中,明知道一个失误就会丧命,这是一种非常纯粹的成就。

It's insane. Yeah, that movie is out of control. And it's interesting how these relate in some way to the work you do.

太疯狂了。是的,那部电影简直不可思议。有意思的是,这些在某种程度上都和你的工作有关。

I actually am a rock climber. I first watched Free Solo before I climbed rocks and so I thought it was impressive. I didn't understand how impressive it was.

我其实是个攀岩爱好者。我第一次看《徒手攀岩》的时候还没开始攀岩,所以当时觉得很厉害,但不明白到底有多厉害。

It's one of the rare movies where like the more you know about it, the more you're blown away by how insane this is. Like the kinds of moves he's doing on the wall are things

这是少数几部你越了解就越被震撼到的电影之一。他在岩壁上做的那些动作

That like I don't think I will ever be able to do in my lifetime if it were set in a gym like one foot off the ground.

我觉得即使是在攀岩馆里,离地面只有一英尺高,我这辈子可能都做不到。

With a rope.

还有安全绳的情况下。

With a rope.

对,有安全绳的情况下。

Did you see the documentary on that other guy, the younger one that went on like ice mountain?

你看过那个关于另一个人的纪录片吗,那个年轻人去爬冰山的?

I did. That one was very sad.

看过。那部很悲伤。

But that was wild. Okay, uh, favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

但那部也很震撼。好的,呃,你最近发现的、真心喜欢的产品是什么?

The product that has most changed my life outside of cloud products is probably Waymo.

除了云产品之外,对我生活改变最大的产品可能是 Waymo。

Like I'm a diehard Waymo user. I use it twice a day, get to and from work.

我是 Waymo 的铁杆用户。我每天用两次,上下班都坐。

So the two things that I really like about it are one, I don't feel bad if a Waymo is waiting for me.

我特别喜欢它的两点,第一,如果 Waymo 在等我,我不会感到内疚。

And so I feel less pressure to be right at the curbside the moment it arrives.

所以我不会有那种压力,觉得必须在它到达的那一刻就站在路边。

And the second thing is I feel like it lets me be a bit more productive.

第二点是,我觉得它让我的效率更高一些。

When I'm in the car with another human, I typically try not to do any work.

当车里有另一个人的时候,我通常会尽量不工作。

calls. I feel a little rude if I'm like on my laptop the whole time. But one thing I really appreciate about the Waymo is I can call into a work call. I'm not worried about someone overhearing me. I'm not worried about, hey, is this like rude? Am I talking too loud? Do I need to ask someone to like change the music? And so this has been like I feel like this has given me back like 30 minutes every day.

打电话。如果我一直在用笔记本电脑,我会觉得有点不礼貌。但 Waymo 让我很欣赏的一点是,我可以接入工作电话。我不用担心有人会听到我说话。我不用担心,嘿,这样是不是不礼貌?我说话声音是不是太大了?我需不需要让司机换个音乐?所以这个让我觉得每天多出了 30 分钟。

All these second order effects of technology. It's so interesting.

技术带来的这些二阶效应,真的很有意思。

Yeah. I always thought Waymo needed to be priced lower than Uber and Lyft to succeed, but actually I'm like very happy to pay a 2x premium for it.

是的。我一直以为 Waymo 需要比 Uber 和 Lyft 便宜才能成功,但实际上我很愿意为它支付两倍的价格。

I love Waymo. It's just like once you see it, you're just like, "Wow, this is insane." And then you get used to it. Like you get in there, you're like, "This is crazy." And then you forget about it.

我很喜欢 Waymo。就是你第一次看到它的时候会觉得「哇,太疯狂了」。然后你就习惯了。你坐进去的时候还在想「这太不可思议了」,但很快就忘了这回事。

Totally. And I think it's also changed the vernacular. Like a lot of people at

确实是这样。而且我觉得它还改变了大家的说话方式。比如

Anthropic love Waymo. And I think in the past you would be like, "Hey, like let's call like blah blah ride share app." And now like everyone's just like, "Okay, is the Waymo here?"

Anthropic 有很多人都喜欢 Waymo。以前大家会说「嘿,我们叫个某某打车软件吧」,现在大家都直接说「Waymo 到了吗?」

Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?

好的,还有两个问题。你有没有一句最喜欢的人生格言,在工作或生活中经常想起的?

Just do things.

就是去做事情。

That's right.

没错。

I think there's a lot of value in first principles thinking and if you know what you're optimizing for and you have strong first principles, then you can normally deduce what the right course of action is and be able to clearly articulate that to all the stakeholders and then you should just do it. I think jobs are fake. If you understand the constraints, you can figure out what you can do and then just try to do it quickly, learn from the mistakes and apologize or fix them if you did something wrong.

我觉得第一性原理思维很有价值,如果你知道自己在优化什么,并且有坚实的第一性原理,那你通常就能推导出正确的行动方案,并能向所有利益相关方清楚地阐述,然后你就应该去做。我认为工作角色其实是虚的。如果你理解了限制条件,你就能想清楚自己能做什么,然后快速去做,从错误中学习,如果做错了就道歉或修正。

You could just do things, whoever said that.

你就是可以去做事情,不管是谁说的这句话。

I think it's liberating actually to tell people this. I think in a lot of companies, roles are very strictly defined like, okay, this is what the PM does, this is what the designer does, this is what the engineer does, and then even team scopes are very rigidly defined. So, hey, this corner of the codebase we touch and this corner we're not allowed to touch. And I think what 'just do things' lets people do is they feel empowered to make these decisions, empowered to operate across team boundaries just to get something done.

我觉得告诉人们这一点其实很解放人。在很多公司里,角色定义得非常严格,比如这是 PM 做的,这是设计师做的,这是工程师做的,甚至团队范围也划分得很死板。所以就变成了,嘿,代码库的这个角落我们负责,那个角落我们不能碰。而我觉得「just do things」让人们感到有权力做这些决定,有权力跨越团队边界去把事情做成。

That feels like a big important skill to be good at. People call it agency. Just like, do the things.

这感觉是一项很重要的技能。人们称之为主动性。就是,去做那些事情。

Bias towards action. All these ways of describing just like, don't wait for permission.

偏向行动。所有这些说法都是在描述同一件事:不要等待许可。

Yeah. I think this is my favorite reason to work at a startup at some point in your career.

对。我觉得这是我最喜欢在职业生涯中某个阶段去创业公司工作的原因。

Your life, because like one thing that was like very life-changing for me was actually working at Scale when we were 20 people.

在你的人生中,因为有一件事对我来说真的改变了人生,就是在 Scale 只有 20 个人的时候去那里工作。

And so there was just no process and we had like really big problems that we needed to solve.

那时候完全没有流程,而我们有非常大的问题需要解决。

And it was like I really appreciate Alex and the rest of the team for like empowering me and the rest of the team to just like figure things out without any boundaries for what sales is supposed to do, what ops is supposed to do, what engineer is supposed to do.

我真的很感激 Alex 和团队其他成员,他们赋予我和团队权力,让我们在没有任何边界的情况下去解决问题——不用管销售应该做什么、运营应该做什么、工程师应该做什么。

Just like you have all the tools at your disposal, you have some like ambitious hairy problem statement and you can do whatever you need to like get to a good solution.

就是你手头有所有工具,面前有一个雄心勃勃的棘手问题,你可以做任何需要做的事情来找到好的解决方案。

Like you almost need that experience to build that skill to feel comfortable doing that because a lot of people, you know, they go through school or in college and it's all these like do the thing we tell you to do and then you will get a good grade.

你几乎需要那种经历来培养这种技能,让自己习惯这样做,因为很多人在学校或大学里,都是「做我们让你做的事,然后你就能得到好成绩」。

And you have to kind of unlearn that of like, okay, I'm just

你必须摆脱那种思维模式,转变成「好吧,我就是要

I'm going to do the thing that needs to be done, and even if people think it's dumb, I think it's the right thing to do.

去做需要做的事情,即使别人觉得这很蠢,我也认为这是正确的事。」

Yeah, exactly.

对,就是这样。

Okay, I actually have two more quick questions. Two more final questions. One is, when Claude thinks, there's all these—I don't know if you call them verbs. What's the term for these things?

好,我其实还有两个快速问题。最后两个问题。一个是,当 Claude 在思考的时候,会有各种——我不知道该叫它们动词还是什么。这些东西叫什么?

Uh, thinking words.

呃,思考词汇。

Thinking words. And interestingly, these all leaked in the source code. Do you have a favorite thinking word?

思考词汇。有意思的是,这些都在源代码里泄露了。你有最喜欢的思考词汇吗?

I really like manifesting. It's also like the sticker that I have on my favorite.

我特别喜欢 manifesting(显化)。这也是我最喜欢的贴纸上的词。

Clearly the winner. Okay, final question. Asked Boris this too. With AGI potentially arriving in our lifetime, when you don't potentially have to work, what are you going to do? What are you going to do with all your time?

显然是赢家。好,最后一个问题。也问过 Boris 这个问题。如果 AGI 可能在我们有生之年到来,当你可能不需要工作的时候,你会做什么?你会怎么安排你的时间?

I think it will take a long time for AGI to diffuse across society. So, I—

我认为 AGI 要在整个社会中普及还需要很长时间。所以,我——

I think the immediate thing is actually just like helping bring the world along.

我觉得当下最重要的事情其实就是帮助整个世界跟上这个进程。

I think my like non-serious answer for after this happens is I'll probably just do a lot of rock climbing.

我那个不太正经的答案是,等这一切发生之后,我可能就会去大量攀岩。

I'll probably just like live in some—I'll probably move to like Fontainebleau and just like live amongst 10,000 boulders and climb for a bit.

我可能会搬到 Fontainebleau 那样的地方,就住在一万块巨石中间,爬一阵子。

There's also so many books I want to read that my goal is to be able to read one or two books a week and I'm currently at probably like 0.5.

还有太多书我想读了,我的目标是能做到每周读一到两本书,而我现在大概只能读 0.5 本。

The backlog is pretty big. I think there's just like so much we can learn from history and so much that I don't understand as well as I would love to.

积压的书单很长。我觉得我们能从历史中学到太多东西,而有太多东西我还没有理解到我希望达到的程度。

Like I don't know anything about physics or like robotics or like any hardware or like aerospace or there's just so many interesting topics.

比如我对物理学、机器人学、任何硬件或者航空航天都一无所知,有太多有趣的话题了。

So I'm excited to learn even knowing that the AI will already know it.

所以我很期待去学习这些,即使知道 AI 已经掌握了这些知识。

Cat, this was amazing. You're awesome. Two follow questions.

Cat,这次对话太棒了。你真厉害。还有两个后续问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out?

如果大家想联系你,可以在哪里找到你?

Out and just follow what you're up to? And how can listeners be useful to you?

关注你在做什么?还有听众怎样能帮到你?

The best way to reach out is I am Catwoo on Twitter. Feel free to like tag me in things. Feel free to DM me. I read all my DMs. I don't always respond to every single one, but I will read them all.

最好的联系方式是我在 Twitter 上的账号 Catwoo。欢迎在帖子里 @ 我。欢迎给我发私信。我会读所有私信,虽然不一定每条都回复,但我都会看。

And then the thing that is most helpful is tell us where Claude Code and Cowork aren't working well for you. We are very grateful for the amount of positive feedback. But the things that we thrive on is edge cases, errors, like specific tasks that we can reproduce where Claude Code or Cowork fail.

然后最有帮助的是告诉我们 Claude Code 和 Cowork 在哪些地方对你不好用。我们非常感激大家的正面反馈,但我们真正需要的是边缘案例、错误,以及我们能复现的、Claude Code 或 Cowork 失败的具体任务。

Because if you're able to share that with us and we're able to reproduce it, then this is something that we're able to actively improve for our next generations of models and for our next harnesses.

因为如果你能分享给我们,而我们能复现它,那这就是我们能在下一代模型和下一代工具中主动改进的东西。

Extremely cool. Everyone on Twitter are not shy with sharing this feedback. So keep it coming.

太酷了。Twitter 上的大家在分享反馈这方面从不害羞,所以请继续。

Share us, please, please share the

请分享给我们,拜托了,请分享——

Problems that you're having with us.

你们遇到的问题。

Yeah, and it's really cool to see all your team being so active on Twitter and responding to people, and so like what I'm hearing, like this is actually stuff you guys actually see and react to, so...

是的,看到你们整个团队在 Twitter 上这么活跃、回复大家,真的很酷。所以我听到的意思是,这些反馈你们团队确实会看到并采取行动,对吧……

Yeah, we appreciate everyone being so engaged with us. It gives the team a ton of energy. We have this channel of like user love, and so whenever you guys share a success story, we post it there, and whenever you guys share like issues with our product, we put it into our feedback channel. That way our broader team is able to act on it.

是的,我们很感激大家这么积极地和我们互动。这给团队带来了巨大的能量。我们有一个「用户喜爱」频道,所以每当你们分享成功案例时,我们会发到那里;每当你们分享产品问题时,我们会放进反馈频道。这样我们更广泛的团队就能据此采取行动。

That is so cool to know. Thanks for sharing that. Well, C, thank you so much for being here.

知道这个太好了。谢谢分享。好的,Cat,非常感谢你来做客。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢邀请我。

Bye everyone.

大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also...

非常感谢收听。如果你觉得有价值,可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅本节目。还有……

Please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

也请考虑给我们评分或留下评论,因为这真的能帮助其他听众找到这个播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com.

你可以在 lennispodcast.com 找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于本节目的信息。

See you in the next episode.

下期节目见。