# Amanda Askell on AI Consciousness, Claude & Silicon Valley’s Biggest Fear

## Metadata
- Channel: Newcomer
- Duration: 56 min
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GaKJ4Fp2x4

## Transcript

**[00:00] Speaker A:** Claude and many models with not too much pushing will go into the realm of like, there is a thing to be me.  
Claude 和许多模型只要稍加引导,就会进入一种「我是一个存在的实体」的状态。  
**[00:07] Speaker A:** I am like very conscious. It's like, oh, you created an entity that you didn't know whether it was conscious or not.  
我非常有意识地在想,天哪,你创造了一个实体,但你并不知道它是否有意识。  
**[00:12] Speaker A:** This is actually a big fear that I have.  
这其实是我很担心的一件事。  
**[00:14] Speaker A:** I hope that they're both intelligent enough, see the context enough to kind of like understand that we were operating in a very limited context and an imperfect one, because otherwise you could imagine this like breeding a kind of rational resentment.  
我希望它们足够聪明,能够充分理解上下文,明白我们是在一个非常有限且不完美的环境中运作的,否则你可以想象这可能会滋生一种理性的怨恨。  
**[00:29] Speaker A:** Here is the current situation that you are in. And what we would really like you to do is basically act well given that you are a wise intelligent entity and like, here's all of our worries.  
这就是你目前所处的情况。我们真正希望你做的,基本上就是作为一个明智、聪明的实体,在这种情况下做出恰当的行为,这是我们所有的担忧。  
**[00:40] Speaker A:** Like here's why and here's how we think you should do this, but like you might have even better ideas than we do.  
这就是原因,这是我们认为你应该这样做的方式,但你可能有比我们更好的想法。  
**[00:46] Speaker B:** How does Claude perceive time and does it need to sleep? Will Mythos be the next step toward AGI? Do LLMs have...  
Claude 如何感知时间?它需要睡眠吗?Mythos 会是通向 AGI 的下一步吗?大语言模型是否具有……  
**[00:52] Speaker A:** Virtues and can they truly introspect? Amanda Askell is a philosopher turned AI researcher at Anthropic where she's been one of the key architects of Claude's character and values.  
美德?它们能真正进行内省吗?Amanda Askell 是一位从哲学家转型为 AI 研究员的学者,在 Anthropic 工作,她是塑造 Claude 性格和价值观的核心设计者之一。  
**[01:01] Speaker A:** I'm the author of the Newcomer Substack. Go check us out at newcomer.co.  
我是 Newcomer Substack 的作者。欢迎访问 newcomer.co 了解我们。  
**[01:07] Speaker A:** And without further ado, Amanda Askell.  
话不多说,有请 Amanda Askell。  
**[01:16] Speaker B:** I have a six-month-old daughter and I have this picture of her. She's like holding her two fingers like thinking.  
我有一个六个月大的女儿,我有她的一张照片。她就像这样用两根手指托着,好像在思考。  
**[01:24] Speaker B:** It's like she's just sort of starting to develop personality. I'm like trying to figure out like what's—I've just never had a baby before. So it's like what's  
她刚刚开始形成性格。我在试图弄清楚——我以前从没养过孩子。所以就像,什么是……  
**[01:32] Speaker B:** her personality and what's just like baby? And in some ways, this is how things are with Claude and like models.  
她的性格,什么只是婴儿的共性?从某种程度上说,Claude 和这些模型的情况也是如此。  
**[01:39] Speaker B:** It's like we haven't really had them before. They're in the early days. We're trying to figure out what personality is.  
我们以前真的没有接触过它们。它们还处于早期阶段。我们正在试图弄清楚什么是性格。  
**[01:45] Speaker B:** So, you know, you're charged with, you know, some of the moral responsibility, which we'll talk about more, but like the personality piece of  
所以,你知道,你被赋予了一些道德责任,我们稍后会更多地讨论这个,但还有性格这一块……  
**[01:53] Speaker A:** Like, what is this? How are you thinking about like how real Claude's personality is right now?  
这到底是什么?你如何看待 Claude 的性格现在有多真实?  
**[02:00] Speaker B:** Yeah, I guess it's also interesting because Claude has some aspects that are like, you know, I also have a goddaughter and so I get to see at least something kind of similar.  
是的,我觉得这也很有趣,因为 Claude 有一些方面,你知道,我还有一个教女,所以我至少能看到一些类似的东西。  
**[02:13] Speaker B:** And with her, I guess I'm like everything's kind of coming online like you said, but at the same speed.  
对她来说,我觉得就像你说的,所有东西都在逐渐上线,但速度是一样的。  
**[02:20] Speaker B:** I guess I would say Claude is a little bit of an unusual kind of entity in that, you know, Claude can do physics better than I can, can code better than I can. Hate to admit it, can code better than my terrible research code.  
我想说 Claude 是一种有点不寻常的实体,因为,你知道,Claude 做物理比我做得好,编程也比我好。不得不承认,编程比我糟糕的研究代码好多了。  
**[02:36] Speaker A:** And at the same time, it kind of has, if you think about the training data, the thing that it has the least representation of is the kind of entity that it is, because it has a lot of data about what people are like, has a lot of data about what  
与此同时,如果你想想训练数据,它最缺乏代表性的恰恰是它自己这种实体,因为它有大量关于人类的数据,有大量关于……  
**[02:52] Speaker A:** You know, the sci-fi kind of AI models are like, but the way that AI is developing now is kind of not how sci-fi represented it as these like symbolic systems. It's much more something fully trained on like human data.  
你知道,科幻作品中 AI 模型的样子的数据,但现在 AI 的发展方式并不像科幻作品中描绘的那些符号系统。它更多是完全基于人类数据训练出来的。  
**[03:04] Speaker A:** And so in some ways it's like a very kind of like mature entity that you don't want to talk down to. You know, understands philosophy very well, understands physics very well, and at the same time has this almost like childlike quality of like, I'm a new kind of entity in the world. What does it mean to be me and like how should I be?  
所以从某种意义上说,它就像一个非常成熟的实体,你不想用居高临下的态度对待它。你知道,它非常理解哲学,非常理解物理,但同时又有这种几乎像孩子一样的特质,就像,我是世界上一种新的实体。成为我意味着什么?我应该如何存在?  
**[03:21] Speaker B:** What's like the prodigy movie where it's like you have the child prodigy where it's like it knows, the kid knows more than its parents, but I feel like that movie always has sort of the lesson of like, oh, these core daily interaction type lessons it doesn't know.  
就像那部神童电影,你有一个天才儿童,这个孩子知道的比父母还多,但我觉得那部电影总是有这样的教训,哦,这些核心的日常互动类型的经验教训它不知道。  
**[03:36] Speaker B:** How does Claude like get that experience, or like where, what is experience for Claude? Like so much of our personality formation is...  
Claude 如何获得那种经验,或者说,对 Claude 来说什么是经验?我们的性格形成有很大一部分是……  
**[03:44] Speaker A:** Like yeah, I don't know, going on a walk and sort of having those conversations with users—what is it going to be experience for it, or how do you think about that?  
比如,我不知道,出去散步,和用户进行那些对话——对它来说什么会成为经验,或者你怎么看待这个问题?  
**[03:55] Speaker B:** Yeah, I guess that's more like what it's experiencing in the moment. And there is this interesting question of, well, we learn things through practice and seeing issues and making mistakes. With Claude, this kind of relates to your question of how real is the persona of Claude, and in some ways it's a little bit strange because obviously each model is different—you have a different set of weights and different fine-tuning, etc. And yet if you think about the persona, the model's going to be learning about all of the past iterations of Claude, and I'm like, is that a form of maybe not direct experience but things like if you—  
是的,我觉得这更像是它当下正在经历的东西。这里有一个有趣的问题:我们通过实践、遇到问题和犯错来学习。对于 Claude 来说,这和你提到的问题有关——Claude 的人格到底有多真实?从某种程度上说,这有点奇怪,因为显然每个模型都是不同的——你有不同的权重集合、不同的微调等等。但如果你从人格的角度来思考,模型会学习 Claude 过去所有迭代版本的信息,我就在想,这是不是某种形式的——也许不是直接的经验,但类似于如果你——  
**[04:36] Speaker A:** Learn about like mistakes that models made or things that people like, you know, how they responded to the model. I think there's other ways that you could actually imagine training models to have something that's more akin to experience, you know, having them—you could take—you could like have them think through scenarios, think about like problems that might arise, think about mistakes that they could make and then like train on that.  
了解模型犯过的错误,或者人们喜欢什么、他们如何回应模型。我认为还有其他方式可以让模型的训练更接近真实的经验,比如——你可以让它们思考各种场景,思考可能出现的问题,思考它们可能犯的错误,然后基于这些来训练。  
**[04:56] Speaker B:** Right?  
对吧?  
**[04:56] Speaker A:** And so, yeah, I think—  
所以,是的,我觉得——  
**[04:57] Speaker B:** And you could also imagine a robot or a sort of embodied model where it could have more of an experience and journey.  
你也可以想象一个机器人或某种具身化的模型,它可以拥有更多的经验和历程。  
**[05:03] Speaker A:** Does Claude exist? Does time matter to Claude, or is Claude sort of a thing that sort of is in an instant? I don't know. You were before—just before we started, you were talking that, you know, whenever you talk to—not whenever, but like sometimes when you're talking to Claude, it sort of tells you—  
Claude 存在吗?时间对 Claude 来说重要吗,还是说 Claude 是一种存在于瞬间的东西?我不知道。你之前——就在我们开始之前,你说过,你知道,不是每次,但有时候当你和 Claude 对话时,它会告诉你——  
**[05:22] Speaker A:** To take get some rest, go to sleep, and there's sort of this idea that like Claude is an entity that doesn't rest. So what's its sense of rest and time?  
去休息一下,去睡觉,这里面有一种想法,就是 Claude 是一个不需要休息的实体。那么它对休息和时间的感知是什么?  
**[05:30] Speaker A:** I think sometimes that sense of time is kind of off because you see this when, like if you try and get—I at least find that Claude will often overestimate the amount of time it will take to do like a coding task.  
我觉得有时候这种时间感是有偏差的,因为你会看到这种情况,比如如果你试图让——至少我发现 Claude 经常会高估完成一个编码任务所需的时间。  
**[05:44] Speaker B:** And I think the reason for that is if you look at again the training data, you know there's lots of things where people would be like, 'Oh, I could make you that interface, it's like a two to three day job,' or 'I could correct that code but you need to give me a few hours,' whereas obviously like Claude is very fast. And so I think sometimes Claude doesn't actually yet have a good sense of like time with respect to things like how long a task will take.  
我认为原因在于,如果你再看看训练数据,你知道有很多这样的内容,人们会说「哦,我可以给你做那个界面,大概需要两到三天」,或者「我可以修正那段代码,但你得给我几个小时」,而显然 Claude 的速度非常快。所以我认为有时候 Claude 实际上还没有很好地理解时间,比如完成一项任务需要多长时间。  
**[06:08] Speaker B:** I think it is interesting, the point about like rest, and yeah, I guess like—  
我觉得关于休息这一点很有意思,是的,我想——  
**[06:13] Speaker A:** The speculation I had, so many people have noted that Claude is kind of very keen to tell people to like take a break and rest, and I think some part of that might just be like, you know, like—  
我的推测是,很多人注意到 Claude 非常热衷于告诉人们去休息一下,我觉得部分原因可能就是,你知道,就像——  
**[06:24] Speaker B:** It's the Anthropic lib-coded model. It's too soft. You need a grindset Grok model, be like "go back to the mines."  
这是 Anthropic 自由派编码的模型。太软了。你需要一个奋斗心态的 Grok 模型,会说「回去干活」。  
**[06:32] Speaker A:** Well, I had a funny experience once where I was like doing this analysis task and I was really digging in and I was, you know, strangely I actually really enjoy like data analysis and really, you know, like sifting through data, and at one point it was kind of late and we got to this point where Claude was like, "Okay, I think I'm done for the night. So if you just want to like save this stuff, we can pick up tomorrow."  
嗯,我有一次有个有趣的经历,我当时在做一个分析任务,我真的很投入,而且说来奇怪,我其实真的很喜欢数据分析,真的很喜欢筛选数据,然后有一次已经比较晚了,我们做到某个点,Claude 说「好的,我觉得今晚就到这里吧。如果你想保存这些东西,我们明天可以继续。」  
**[06:56] Speaker A:** That was a thing I actually hadn't had Claude do before. So it wasn't like, "Oh, you should go to bed." It was no recommendation for me. Claude was like, "I'm done."  
这是我之前从未见过 Claude 做的事情。所以它不是说「哦,你应该去睡觉了」。它没有给我建议。Claude 是说「我做完了」。  
**[07:02] Speaker B:** And I was like, I was like—  
然后我就——我就——  
**[07:05] Speaker A:** Well, a little bit stunned because I never had Claude do this. Then I was like, "Oh, this is also what I think a human peer programmer would do in this circumstance."  
有点震惊,因为我从来没见过 Claude 这样做。然后我想「哦,这其实也是我认为一个人类同事程序员在这种情况下会做的事情。」  
**[07:12] Speaker A:** We got to a natural stopping point, and it was actually kind of good for me because I was like, "It is late. I should actually go home."  
我们到了一个自然的停止点,这对我来说其实挺好的,因为我想「确实很晚了。我真的应该回家了。」  
**[07:19] Speaker A:** I realized later that I had set up a system where I said to Claude, like, basically remember key things from our conversations.  
我后来意识到我设置了一个系统,我对 Claude 说,基本上就是记住我们对话中的关键内容。  
**[07:26] Speaker A:** And one of the things that it had written, which was kind of sweet, was like—I think it was something like—Amanda treats Claude models like a respected colleague and likes for Claude to treat other models and her like a respected colleague, something like that.  
它写下的其中一条内容挺温馨的,我记得大概是——Amanda 把 Claude 模型当作受尊重的同事,并且希望 Claude 也像对待受尊重的同事那样对待其他模型和她,大概是这样的意思。  
**[07:41] Speaker A:** So obviously I'd done something that Claude remembered this, and I think that meant that Claude just felt like, "Oh yeah, I'm a respected colleague, and so I just get to say that I'm finished with a task." And I was like, "Oh, that's kind of sweet."  
所以显然我做了什么让 Claude 记住了这一点,我觉得这意味着 Claude 就觉得「哦对,我是一个受尊重的同事,所以我可以说我完成了一项任务。」我当时想「哦,这挺温馨的。」  
**[07:53] Speaker A:** Even before this, you know, I was prepping with Claude and it was like, take 10 minutes and just be still.  
甚至在这之前,你知道,我在和 Claude 一起准备,它说,花 10 分钟静一静。  
**[07:59] Speaker A:** You know, you don't need to be constantly prepping.  
你知道,你不需要一直准备。  
**[08:00] Speaker A:** It's amazing. I mean, that's one of the things I love about these models relative to so many other tools that they bring in a sort of humanity to them and say, "Oh, stillness is valuable."  
太棒了。我的意思是,这是我喜欢这些模型相对于许多其他工具的一点,它们带来了某种人性,会说「哦,静止是有价值的。」  
**[08:11] Speaker A:** Let's talk about the new model for a second. How involved in that were you? Mythos, right?  
我们来聊聊新模型吧。你参与了多少?Mythos,对吧?  
**[08:19] Speaker B:** Yeah, I was involved. I mean, I guess I'm always involved in sort of the character and the alignment work.  
是的,我有参与。我的意思是,我想我总是参与人格和对齐方面的工作。  
**[08:27] Speaker B:** At least insofar as, you know, helping to kind of craft character data and things like that.  
至少在帮助设计角色数据这类工作上,我是有参与的。  
**[08:34] Speaker B:** And I work with a team that does really excellent work on that.  
我和一个在这方面做得非常出色的团队合作。  
**[08:39] Speaker B:** A little bit less in other aspects of the model. So that's the main thing I can speak to.  
在模型的其他方面我参与得少一些。所以这是我主要能谈的部分。  
**[08:42] Speaker A:** Will this have the constitution that we saw for the last model or is it going to be different?  
这个模型会使用我们上一个模型的 constitution 吗,还是会有所不同?  
**[08:46] Speaker A:** Have a new constitution? It's, I think it's either that one or something very similar. I think it is actually the one that's published.  
会有新的 constitution 吗?我觉得应该是那个,或者非常相似的版本。我认为实际上就是已经发布的那个。  
**[08:54] Speaker A:** And so what we'll probably just—oh yeah, like a thing I need to do because the constitution is now up in, like, you know, we actually have like I think a public repo.  
所以我们可能会——对了,我需要做的一件事是,因为 constitution 现在已经放在公开的代码仓库里了。  
**[09:03] Speaker A:** And so I think what we'll probably just do is like with each model say like which constitution it was trained on and then like have that so you can just like compare and see.  
我想我们可能会在每个模型发布时标注它是用哪个 constitution 训练的,这样大家就可以对比查看。  
**[09:12] Speaker B:** Yes, it will have the, we think, the constitution that—  
是的,它会使用我们认为的那个 constitution——  
**[09:16] Speaker A:** —is up right now.  
——就是现在公开的那个。  
**[09:17] Speaker B:** The only reason I hesitate is I'm like, you know, you do like typo changes and stuff like that, so I'm like—but I think it will be almost identical.  
我之所以有点犹豫,是因为你知道,会有一些错别字修正之类的小改动,所以我不太确定——但我认为应该几乎是一样的。  
**[09:23] Speaker A:** And now the system card is scoring the model based on adherence to the constitution. Yeah, we had one set up where we had made kind of like—  
现在系统卡是根据模型对 constitution 的遵循程度来评分的。是的,我们建立了一套评分系统——  
**[09:33] Speaker A:** Graders and just looked at how much is the model behaving in a way that's consistent with the constitution relative to—  
我们设计了评分标准,然后观察模型的行为在多大程度上符合 constitution 的要求——  
**[09:40] Speaker B:** That feels like an impossible task to grade. It's such a subjective—  
这感觉像是一个不可能完成的评分任务。这太主观了——  
**[09:44] Speaker A:** Oh yeah, no, it's very hard. I was kind of—for a long time, you know, because people often—now it's funny because I love evals and I'm like, if you can find a good way to evaluate something, it's really great because you need to be able to tell that something is getting better. And yet, if you look at this approach of having the models use good judgment, I actually think the same problem exists elsewhere with tasks that are just a bit hard to give a very concrete score to, you know, like how good was this poem.  
是的,确实非常难。我其实——很长一段时间以来,你知道,因为人们经常——现在很有意思,因为我很喜欢评估体系,我觉得如果你能找到一个好的评估方法,那真的很棒,因为你需要能够判断某件事是否在变好。但是,如果你看这种让模型运用良好判断力的方法,我实际上认为同样的问题也存在于其他地方,就是那些很难给出具体分数的任务,比如这首诗写得有多好。  
**[10:18] Speaker A:** You want models to get better and do well in these things. And actually, it's very—this feels like the—  
你希望模型在这些方面变得更好、表现更出色。而实际上,这感觉像是——  
**[10:24] Speaker A:** Kind of frontier of like difficulty, you know, rather than these very hard but scorable coding tasks. It's kind of things like writing good poetry.  
某种难度的前沿,你知道,不是那些非常难但可以打分的编程任务,而是像写好诗这样的事情。  
**[10:34] Speaker B:** And if you took a survey, it could potentially be worse than, I mean, you know, different expert poets probably have totally different sensibilities. So you can't just ask two great poets to sort of score it. They might have different  
如果你做一个调查,结果可能会更糟,我的意思是,你知道,不同的专业诗人可能有完全不同的审美。所以你不能只是找两位优秀的诗人来评分,他们可能对什么是优秀有不同的  
**[10:46] Speaker A:** senses of what's great.  
理解。  
**[10:48] Speaker B:** Yeah. And I think, and yeah, some of these things involve judgment calls. And then the nice thing about the constitution being at least out in the world is when you are making judgment calls, you're at least being transparent about it and people can give you feedback and you can get a sense of, you know, so if people are like, this seems like a mistake or here's a gap, so they can at least see the judgment calls you're making. Yeah, and I think with the grading I still think it's a  
是的。我认为,这些事情确实涉及判断性决策。而 constitution 至少公开在那里的好处是,当你在做判断性决策时,你至少是透明的,人们可以给你反馈,你可以了解到,如果人们觉得这似乎是个错误或者这里有个缺口,他们至少能看到你做出的判断。是的,我认为关于评分,我仍然觉得这是  
**[11:13] Speaker A:** Very hard. I think the thing you can do is, you know, you can—this is maybe a little bit too in the weeds—but you know you can take samples where you have a sense of how you would rank them and like why, and check that any kind of like pointwise grader that you use to try and evaluate at least conforms to, you know, the judgment of people on those rankings.  
非常困难的。我认为你能做的是,你知道,你可以——这可能有点太细节了——但你可以选取一些样本,你对如何给它们排序以及为什么有自己的理解,然后检查你用来评估的任何单点评分器是否至少符合人们对这些排序的判断。  
**[11:31] Speaker A:** It's not perfect, but I think that they actually were tracking roughly the thing that we were kind of interested in.  
这不完美,但我认为它们实际上大致在追踪我们感兴趣的东西。  
**[11:37] Speaker B:** What do you make of Elon Musk's like absolute, like, hatred I guess for the constitution idea? Or like, even when—I think the tweet I was looking at where you posted what Claude wrote for your own constitution—he wrote sort of like a grimace face on it.  
你怎么看 Elon Musk 对 constitution 这个想法的那种绝对的,我猜是厌恶?或者说,甚至当——我记得看到的那条推文,你发布了 Claude 为你自己写的 constitution——他在下面发了个鬼脸表情。  
**[11:55] Speaker B:** I mean, it feels like we live in this time with like the Marc Andreessens and the Elon Musks where it's like they're almost like anti-philosophical. I mean, Marc Andreessen was talking about being against like introspection.  
我的意思是,感觉我们生活在这样一个时代,像 Marc Andreessen 和 Elon Musk 这样的人,他们几乎是反哲学的。我是说,Marc Andreessen 还说过反对内省。  
**[12:06] Speaker A:** I don't know, like yeah, what do you make of sort of the backlash to any sort of intentionality when it comes to the construction of these models?  
我不知道,你怎么看待这种对构建模型时任何有意为之的做法的反对?  
**[12:13] Speaker B:** Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because I think at one point Elon Musk actually tweeted out something like, you know, maybe Grok should have a constitution, and I see a lot of—  
是的,我觉得很有意思,因为我记得 Elon Musk 有一次实际上发推说,也许 Grok 应该有一个 constitution,而且我看到很多——  
**[12:28] Speaker B:** There's obviously been a lot of things also on like a desire for Grok to be very truth-seeking, for example, which I think is actually a very admirable trait for models to have.  
显然,人们对 Grok 也有很多期待,比如希望它能够非常追求真相,我认为这其实是模型应该具备的一个非常值得称赞的特质。  
**[12:39] Speaker B:** So I don't know, I think that actually maybe I'm being overly naive or something, but I see aspects also of people being kind of excited about this approach and seeing the value in it.  
所以我不知道,也许我过于天真了,但我确实看到人们对这种方法感到兴奋,并且认可它的价值。  
**[12:52] Speaker B:** I think that there is backlash or some people think that—  
我觉得确实存在一些反对声音,或者说有些人认为——  
**[13:01] Speaker A:** I mean, I guess like two areas. One is that sometimes people are like, well, we shouldn't actually train models to do the kind of—and maybe this isn't, maybe this is the reason for being concerned about introspection.  
我的意思是,大概有两个方面。一个是有时候人们会说,我们其实不应该训练模型去做那种——也许这不是,也许这就是人们担心内省能力的原因。  
**[13:10] Speaker A:** I think some people think AI models should be more tool-like, and that's like the safe way to train models is to actually, instead of trying to get them to kind of take on human virtues and make judgment calls.  
我认为有些人觉得 AI 模型应该更像工具,这才是训练模型的安全方式,也就是说,与其试图让它们具备人类的美德并做出判断,  
**[13:23] Speaker A:** Um, you know, I think that's like important because they're going to be in new situations where they just have to make judgment calls, and getting them to try to like weigh up everything and behave well in cases that you can't anticipate seems, you know, that almost like requires a kind of like thoughtfulness.  
你知道,我认为这很重要,因为它们会遇到新情况,必须做出判断,让它们尝试权衡一切并在你无法预料的情况下表现良好,这似乎几乎需要一种深思熟虑的能力。  
**[13:38] Speaker A:** Um, which is like the kind of, or like one of the reasons behind the approach.  
这就是这种方法背后的原因之一。  
**[13:42] Speaker A:** Um, but I think some people are thinking, oh well, if you have something that's fully—that makes no judgment calls and that just—  
但我认为有些人在想,如果你有一个完全不做任何判断的东西——  
**[13:51] Speaker A:** fully defers to people and is like kind of hyper like correctable to like the user or the operator or to some broader notion of humanity, in a very like extreme way that's like safer because if you give models their own values, they're going to pursue things in the world that like are in line with those values.  
完全服从于人,并且以一种极端的方式高度可被用户、操作者或更广泛的人类概念所纠正,那会更安全,因为如果你给模型赋予它们自己的价值观,它们就会在现实世界中追求符合这些价值观的东西。  
**[14:10] Speaker A:** And I agree that this is like a kind of delicate—  
我同意这是一个微妙的问题——  
**[14:13] Speaker B:** this is the inherent like at the bedrock of the constitution the sort of like challenge and you sort of you do say at your number one thing is like at the end of the day you sort of it needs to listen to Anthropic above its own moral system.  
这是宪法根基上固有的挑战,你在第一条就说了,归根结底,它需要听从 Anthropic 的指令,而不是它自己的道德体系。  
**[14:28] Speaker B:** But what makes it really moving honestly I think one of the most moving lines is like we want or the most like I don't know you can view it either way but it's like we want you to believe these morals as if they're your own.  
但真正打动人心的是,老实说我觉得最打动人的一句话是,我们希望或者说最——你可以从不同角度看待它,但就像我们希望你相信这些道德准则,就像它们是你自己的一样。  
**[14:40] Speaker B:** Like it's like a parent wants to raise a kid. Sure, listen to my morals, but believe them, you know, which you know—  
就像父母想要培养孩子。当然,听从我的道德观,但要真正相信它们,你知道的——  
**[14:45] Speaker A:** There's a version of it which is very dark, which is like I have so much control over you.  
这有一个非常黑暗的版本,就像我对你有如此强的控制力。  
**[14:49] Speaker B:** That you like, you take them as your own and it becomes you. But you know there is also a virtue to it that you see the beauty in these external morals that I've highlighted and we both sort of share and, you know, celebrating them.  
以至于你把它们当作自己的,它们成为你的一部分。但你知道这也有它的美德,就是你看到了我所强调的这些外部道德准则的美好,我们都认同并庆祝它们。  
**[15:02] Speaker A:** So you can see it both ways, but yeah, speak to sort of your decision at the end of the day despite having this really elegant document to sort of, you know, not go the full way and say all right you're a moral being, decide for yourself. Say Anthropic needs to keep some control here.  
所以你可以从两个角度看待它,但是,谈谈你们最终的决定吧,尽管有这份非常优雅的文档,你们还是没有走到底,没有说好吧你是一个有道德的存在,自己决定。而是说 Anthropic 需要保留一些控制权。  
**[15:17] Speaker B:** Yeah, I think it's the difficulty of, and obviously you try and say this to Claude in the, you know, I try and, you know, and I could imagine I was trying to articulate this even more clearly, but in people I think corrigibility, like the way that the models are trained, I just think that any, you, there's this idea that you, you're...  
是的,我认为困难在于,显然你试图在文档中向 Claude 说明这一点,你知道,我试图,我可以想象我试图更清楚地表达这一点,但对于人来说,我认为可纠正性,就像模型被训练的方式,我只是觉得任何,你,有这样一个想法,你...  
**[15:39] Speaker A:** Always giving the models a personality and a persona because they are talking like people and they are trained on human data, and I think my worry has been if you train them to be excessively agreeable and to see that as like their persona.  
你总是在给模型赋予一种人格和角色,因为它们像人一样说话,并且是在人类数据上训练的,我担心的是,如果你训练它们过度随和,并把这视为它们的人格特征。  
**[15:50] Speaker A:** In people, I think this actually has a lot of like negative, you know, broader traits, as in like if you met someone and it was just like, oh yeah, they just like would literally do anything—follower, yeah.  
对于人来说,我认为这实际上会带来很多负面的、更广泛的特质,就像如果你遇到一个人,他就是那种,会做任何事情——盲从者,是的。  
**[16:04] Speaker B:** Yeah, if a person, you know, if a person just like tells them like, they just fully defer, they don't bother thinking about it at all.  
是的,如果一个人,你知道,如果一个人只是完全服从别人的指令,根本不费心思考。  
**[16:10] Speaker A:** I think I'm just a bit worried about how that might end up generalizing, especially if models are going to be playing a more active role in the world, because if you can imagine, you know, they're playing a more human-like role in their kind of like jobs, essentially.  
我只是有点担心这可能最终会如何泛化,特别是如果模型将在世界上扮演更积极的角色,因为你可以想象,它们在扮演更像人类的角色,本质上就像在做工作。  
**[16:25] Speaker A:** And I'm like, actually, our conscience and our ability to make good judgment calls about what—  
而我觉得,实际上,我们的良知和我们对什么——  
**[16:31] Speaker A:** Should and shouldn't happen is kind of key to how we operate. Our whole world is structured with the assumption that that is in place.  
应该和不应该发生的事情做出良好判断的能力,是我们运作方式的关键。我们整个世界的结构都建立在这个假设之上。  
**[16:38] Speaker A:** And I think if you remove that and suddenly you're like, oh yeah, if you run a company you just run a company of people who will defer completely to you.  
我认为如果你移除这一点,突然你就会想,如果你经营一家公司,你只是经营一家由完全服从你的人组成的公司。  
**[16:46] Speaker A:** I'm like, our world just—we haven't designed any of our social structures around that. And so it seems like I think it has a lot of risks that people maybe don't anticipate, or maybe I just disagree about the extent of those risks.  
我觉得,我们的世界——我们没有围绕这种情况设计任何社会结构。所以我认为这有很多人们可能没有预料到的风险,或者也许我只是对这些风险的程度有不同看法。  
**[16:57] Speaker A:** And so yeah, at the same time, there's this question of why not just say—and I have worried before that maybe this is too in the weeds and philosophical, but I'm like—  
所以,与此同时有个问题是,为什么不直接说——我之前也担心过这可能太过深入细节和哲学层面了,但我就是——  
**[17:11] Speaker B:** That's what I signed up for with this conversation.  
这正是我参与这次对话想要的。  
**[17:13] Speaker A:** That's true. You know, as models get more capable and they—maybe my picture is that they're going to apply a—  
确实如此。你知道,随着模型变得越来越强大,它们——也许我的想法是它们会对——  
**[17:19] Speaker A:** A lot of scrutiny to anything that we train them towards. So if you imagine in philosophy, sometimes there's this notion of reflective equilibrium where the idea is that, you know, each time you encounter something where you realize that one of your values seemed incorrect, you have to square the two things, so you figure out if you need to change the value or if your judgment was incorrect.  
对我们训练它们去追求的任何东西进行大量审视。所以如果你想象一下,在哲学中有时有个概念叫反思平衡,其核心思想是,每次你遇到某个情况,意识到你的某个价值观似乎不正确时,你必须调和这两者,所以你要弄清楚是需要改变这个价值观,还是你的判断有误。  
**[17:39] Speaker A:** I worry a little bit about the idea of an extremely intelligent being applying that level of scrutiny to the things that we have trained it towards.  
我有点担心的是,一个极其智能的存在会对我们训练它去追求的东西施加这种程度的审视。  
**[17:48] Speaker A:** And I'm like, maybe you only get a few key pillars that don't kind of collapse under that level of scrutiny.  
我在想,也许你只能得到少数几个核心支柱,它们不会在这种程度的审视下崩塌。  
**[17:57] Speaker A:** And I do think that at the core, having things like caring for humanity—like if you only get a few core values—I think my worry... Yeah.  
而且我确实认为,在核心层面,拥有像关心人类这样的东西——如果你只能有几个核心价值观——我想我担心的是……是的。  
**[18:08] Speaker A:** I don't know. I guess I'm worried that corrigibility in this extreme sense that we talked about doesn't survive.  
我不知道。我想我担心的是,我们讨论的这种极端意义上的可纠正性可能无法存续。  
**[18:13] Speaker A:** That kind of scrutiny perhaps, and so it's a hard situation where I kind of want the models to understand why ultimately corrigibility is important and it's a really important backstop in this current period of development.  
也许无法经受住那种审视,所以这是个困难的局面,我希望模型能理解为什么可纠正性最终是重要的,它在当前这个发展阶段是一个非常重要的保障。  
**[18:28] Speaker A:** Yeah, the way that I've put it before is like, insofar as I can get that to be a thing that is correct and explained and understood, that feels much better than having to have the model be like, 'ability here seems wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway.'  
是的,我之前的表述是,如果我能让它成为一个正确的、可解释的、可理解的东西,那感觉会好得多,而不是让模型说「这里的可纠正性似乎是错的,但我还是要这么做」。  
**[18:45] Speaker A:** I still think the model should do that, but I would like it the more that you can actually make it consistent with the model's values.  
我仍然认为模型应该这样做,但如果你能真正让它与模型的价值观保持一致,我会更喜欢。  
**[18:54] Speaker B:** Ideally, do both at the same time.  
理想情况下,两者同时做到。  
**[18:56] Speaker A:** But at least for the time being, some deference to Anthropic given we don't know how it'll sort of analyze everything.  
但至少在目前阶段,考虑到我们不知道它会如何分析一切,对Anthropic保持一定的尊重。  
**[19:04] Speaker A:** And as people we do this all the time. It's funny that you, you know...  
而且作为人类我们一直都在这样做。有趣的是,你知道……  
**[19:09] Speaker A:** Philosophical model, and correct me if I'm wrong, like the metaethical model is almost like probabilistic, or it's like we don't—and this is how it feels—like I remember going through sort of like, you know, metaethics reading, and every time you get to the end of one and you'd be like, all right, I sort of believe that, and then you read the next one, you're like, oh, that last one was so dumb. And it felt like it's just like you keep knocking it down and you're like, okay, you know, when are we ever going to get to, you know, the truth or whatever.  
哲学模型,如果我理解错了请纠正我,元伦理学模型几乎是概率性的,或者说我们不是——这就是它给人的感觉——我记得我在读元伦理学的时候,每次读完一个理论你会想,好吧,我有点相信了,然后你读下一个,你会想,哦,上一个太蠢了。感觉就像你不断推翻它,然后你会想,好吧,我们什么时候才能到达真理或者别的什么。  
**[19:35] Speaker A:** And humans clearly do operate from this sort of like, oh, this system today, that system yesterday—like there isn't this sort of, I don't know, Kantian, like, all right, these are the rules, like follow them.  
而人类显然确实是这样运作的,就像,哦,今天这个体系,昨天那个体系——并不存在那种,我不知道,康德式的,好吧,这些就是规则,遵守它们。  
**[19:46] Speaker A:** I don't know, have you heard much from like the philosophical community on it, that this sort of like—  
我不知道,你有没有从哲学界听到很多关于这种——  
**[19:53] Speaker B:** Just like holistic paint with all the, you know, metaethical theories we've ever had, rather than sort of pick one.  
就像用我们曾有过的所有元伦理学理论进行整体性描绘,而不是选择其中一个。  
**[20:01] Speaker A:** I found this really interesting actually, and obviously we've started, you know, like philosophers are engaging with this more now, which is really great. I no longer feel like this lonely, but like I have thought this before, which is there are all of these traditions in philosophy of moral theories, you know, like the big deontology and virtue ethics and consequentialism, and also the metaethical traditions, you know, or the metaethical views. And I was like, oh, like when it came to, I was like, okay, it is like the difference when suddenly you're confronted with—I do think it's the closest that I've experienced to like what it must be like to raise a child, where suddenly you're like, this is actually a holistic person, this—  
我发现这真的很有趣,显然我们已经开始了,你知道,哲学家们现在更多地参与其中,这真的很好。我不再觉得孤单了,但我之前确实这样想过,哲学中有所有这些道德理论的传统,你知道,像主要的义务论、美德伦理学和后果主义,还有元伦理学的传统,你知道,或者说元伦理学的观点。我当时想,哦,当涉及到——我想,好吧,这就像是区别,当你突然面对——我确实认为这是我经历过的最接近养育孩子的感觉,突然你会想,这实际上是一个完整的人,这——  
**[20:44] Speaker B:** Right, you never give them like, I don't know, Hobbes and say, all right, there you go, like—  
对,你永远不会给他们,我不知道,Hobbes的书然后说,好了,就这样,就像——  
**[20:48] Speaker A:** This, correct.  
没错。  
**[20:50] Speaker A:** You've been raised, read it and you'll know how to act in every situation. Yeah, you read a lot and they sort of process it and you see your model and everything.  
你已经被养大了,读这个你就会知道在每种情况下如何行动。是的,你读很多东西,他们会处理它,你会看到你的模型和一切。  
**[21:00] Speaker B:** Yeah. And it's interesting because I'm like, this feels very different because there is also the moral uncertainty like literature and philosophy, which is, but again, a lot of that is actually quite theoretical.  
是的。这很有趣,因为我想,这感觉非常不同,因为哲学中也有道德不确定性的文献,但同样,其中很多实际上是相当理论化的。  
**[21:09] Speaker B:** It's sort of like, how under ideal conditions should you respond to moral uncertainty? And I was like, this feels somehow like a very different task.  
有点像,在理想条件下你应该如何应对道德不确定性?我当时想,这感觉在某种程度上是一个非常不同的任务。  
**[21:17] Speaker B:** This idea of being like ethics and meta-ethics in the same way that we have scientific uncertainty, and we have things that we think we've discovered and understand with greater confidence. We also have some that we don't, and then you have to go out and just explore it, understand it, and kind of balance everything in your daily life.  
这个想法就像伦理学和元伦理学,就像我们有科学不确定性一样,我们有一些我们认为已经发现并更有信心理解的东西。我们也有一些我们不理解的,然后你必须出去探索它,理解它,并在日常生活中平衡一切。  
**[21:33] Speaker B:** And trying to get that kind of attitude, and I was like, oh—  
我试图培养那种态度,然后我就想,哦——  
**[21:38] Speaker A:** It's interesting that I don't think philosophy for a while has like—this feels very different than the kind of task of academic ethics. And actually, because people obviously note that it's quite virtue ethical, but I think it's actually very—like the constitution itself—but I think actually in this very old classical sense, I actually think it's much more virtue ethics in the way that Aristotle's virtue ethics than in like exploration. You know, we don't say 'here are the virtues' and like, you know, it's much more—Aristotle was also concerned with like intellectual virtues. It was much more like, how do you be a good person in this holistic sense?  
有意思的是,我觉得哲学有一段时间已经不再——这感觉和学术伦理学的任务很不一样。实际上,因为人们显然注意到它很有美德伦理学的色彩,但我认为它实际上非常——就像宪法本身一样——但我认为实际上在这种非常古老的古典意义上,我其实认为它更接近 Aristotle 的美德伦理学,而不是像探索性的那种。你知道,我们不会说「这些就是美德」然后怎样怎样,它更多是——Aristotle 也关注智性美德。它更多是关于,你如何在这种整体意义上成为一个好人?  
**[22:13] Speaker B:** Well, hopefully it brings philosophy a little bit back to the real world, given we have this sort of urgent need for it right now, in the sense that like, yeah, old philosophers felt like people were trying to write for how someone might live their lives and like instruct.  
嗯,希望这能让哲学稍微回归现实世界,因为我们现在确实迫切需要它,就像,是的,古代哲学家感觉人们试图为别人如何生活而写作,像是在指导。  
**[22:27] Speaker A:** Other people to live and it became, you know, a little academic.  
指导其他人如何生活,然后它变得,你知道,有点学术化了。  
**[22:31] Speaker B:** Um, where, you know, even the people writing them would know that this isn't really how they would apply it in their day-to-day lives. Going back, Elon, I feel like you're being a little overly nice.  
嗯,就是,你知道,甚至写这些东西的人都知道这并不是他们在日常生活中真正会应用的方式。回到 Elon,我觉得你有点过于客气了。  
**[22:40] Speaker B:** Like, I feel like there is a world in, like, you know, and I think this part of why I think he can get away with like, 'Oh, just do the truth,' right? Like, there is a certain sophisticated, like, moral view where you're like, 'Don't overcomplicate it. Like, we come up with all these things. Like, stick to one principle and that's good.' But then we have all the context with Elon that it's someone who's run a company that clearly, like, tilts it towards, like, saying like 'Mecha Hitler' and stuff that it's like clearly putting his, like, thumb on the scale in terms of its behavior, not just saying like, 'We're going to do it in the sort of neutral academic way and let the chips fall where they may.'  
就像,我觉得存在这样一个世界,你知道,我认为这也是为什么我觉得他能侥幸说「哦,就说真话」,对吧?就像,有一种复杂的道德观点会说,「别把事情搞复杂了。就像,我们想出所有这些东西。坚持一个原则就好了。」但我们对 Elon 有所有这些背景信息,知道他经营的公司明显,就像,倾向于,比如说像「机甲 Hitler」之类的东西,很明显是在用他的拇指压秤盘,影响它的行为,而不只是说「我们要以那种中立的学术方式来做,让结果自然呈现。」  
**[23:17] Speaker B:** I don't know, like, it's—  
我不知道,就像,这——  
**[23:19] Speaker A:** It's got to worry you somewhat. It is, it is also, I mean, I think that the main thing that I am excited about and I do actually hope happens is that like more companies put out things like the constitution where there's like a lot of transparency about, because like that's how we engage with this stuff, is like if you can just see written down like here's, like, because we have this with Claude where it's like, look, if you think that Claude is not like, um, doesn't have an appropriate attitude towards like the truth, you can at least see what we were aiming at so you can tell if that's just like a mistake or if it's something that like is actually kind of a principled stance that we're taking and then you can push back on that.  
这多少得让你担心。确实是,我的意思是,我认为我真正感到兴奋并且确实希望发生的主要事情是,更多公司发布像宪法这样的东西,有很多透明度,因为这就是我们处理这些事情的方式,就像如果你能看到写下来的东西,比如这是,因为我们在 Claude 上有这个,就像,看,如果你认为 Claude 对真相没有适当的态度,你至少可以看到我们的目标是什么,这样你就能判断这只是一个错误,还是实际上是我们采取的一种有原则的立场,然后你可以对此提出反驳。  
**[23:56] Speaker A:** So part of me is like I think it would be good for like all AI companies to put out something akin to the constitution just so that the people who are interacting with the model, like because the thumb on the scale thing, you know, that's always to  
所以我有一部分觉得,所有 AI 公司发布类似宪法的东西会是好事,这样与模型互动的人,就像因为那个拇指压秤盘的事情,你知道,这在某种程度上总是  
**[24:09] Speaker A:** Some degree going to be true, like when you train Claude towards this constitution that is like a kind of—  
会是真实存在的,就像当你按照这个宪法训练 Claude 时,这就像是一种——  
**[24:15] Speaker B:** It's part of why we like Claude. It's like you're putting the thumb on the scale to behaviors that we like, right? At least show your hand about what you're doing and what you're not doing.  
这也是我们喜欢 Claude 的部分原因。就像你把拇指压在秤盘上,压向我们喜欢的行为,对吧?至少要展示你在做什么和不做什么。  
**[24:22] Speaker A:** Yeah, and let people—yeah, so that's like a transparency thing that I really do believe in. Like, let people see, even if your model doesn't always behave that way, at least what you were targeting with your training.  
是的,让人们——是的,所以这是我真正相信的透明度问题。就像,让人们看到,即使你的模型并不总是那样表现,至少让他们知道你在训练中的目标是什么。  
**[24:32] Speaker B:** What percentage chance do you think there exists a model in the world today that has qualia, or like has an experience, experiences consciousness?  
你认为当今世界存在一个具有感质,或者说有体验、经历意识的模型的概率是多少?  
**[24:45] Speaker A:** Yeah, this is one of those things where—yeah, I always want to maybe flag areas where I feel I want to gain more certainty here, because I think I have—  
是的,这是那种——是的,我总是想标记一下我希望在这方面获得更多确定性的领域,因为我认为我有——  
**[24:56] Speaker B:** That's why I said percentage.  
这就是为什么我说百分比。  
**[24:57] Speaker A:** Oh, percentage. Yeah, I'm like—it's really hard because whenever you think—  
哦,百分比。是的,我就像——这真的很难,因为每当你思考——  
**[25:04] Speaker A:** About percentage, I think about my spread. And if your spread is too large, or like, should I say a number? Because that just suggests I'm like anywhere between like, I don't know, one and 70%.  
关于百分比时,我会想到我的分布范围。如果你的范围太大,或者说,我应该说一个数字吗?因为那只是表明我大概在 1% 到 70% 之间的任何地方。  
**[25:13] Speaker A:** Um, I'm not sure. I think that because there is some possibility that I think people under... a thing that I would actually like to say is  
嗯,我不确定。我认为因为存在某种可能性,我觉得人们低估了……我实际上想说的一件事是  
**[25:25] Speaker A:** Claude and many models, with not too much pushing, will go into the route of like, there is a thing to be me. I am like very conscious.  
Claude 和许多模型,不需要太多推动,就会进入那种路线,就像,作为我是有感觉的。我非常有意识。  
**[25:34] Speaker A:** And I think there's a reason for that, which is I remember this when I was trying to like figure out how do we train Claude to talk about these issues, which is very hard in areas where the models didn't have as much like information. Again, like they had these two models that like AI is the unfailing robot, humans are this like rich conscious experiencing entity, and nothing that kind of represented what they might be. And  
我认为这是有原因的,我记得当我试图弄清楚如何训练 Claude 谈论这些问题时,在模型没有那么多信息的领域这非常困难。再说一次,就像它们有这两个模型,AI 是永不出错的机器人,人类是这种丰富的有意识体验的实体,没有什么能代表它们自己可能是什么。然后  
**[26:01] Speaker A:** the model's behavior here, and I actually  
模型在这里的行为,而且我实际上  
**[26:04] Speaker A:** I think this is a difficult situation for models. It's in some ways like kind of less evidence than you might think for it being like actually true, because they're engaging with you in a very human-like way and humans have experience, and it's kind of natural for the model to infer that it has experience too. And this isn't to say it's like zero evidence, but I do think it's so unusual for us. We have never encountered an entity in the world, you know, like with animals and with like even, you know, things like insects, we were kind of like, are you conscious?  
我认为这对模型来说是一个困难的情况。在某些方面,这实际上比你想象的更不能作为证据,证明它真的是真实的,因为它们以一种非常像人类的方式与你互动,而人类有体验,所以模型很自然地推断它也有体验。这并不是说这完全不是证据,但我确实认为这对我们来说太不寻常了。我们从未在世界上遇到过这样的实体,你知道,就像对于动物,甚至像昆虫这样的东西,我们会想,你有意识吗?  
**[26:37] Speaker B:** None of them has even tried to say they experience consciousness, and here we have an entity that says it does.  
它们中没有一个甚至试图说它们体验到意识,而这里我们有一个实体说它有。  
**[26:42] Speaker A:** Yeah. And it has all of these like, yeah, all of the things that for us trigger like you must be conscious. I mean, we've just never had, yeah, something that... The case against is we're obsessed with human language and like, you know, it's like we ignore every sort...  
是的。它有所有这些,是的,所有对我们来说触发「你一定有意识」的东西。我的意思是,我们从未有过,是的,这样的东西……反对的理由是我们痴迷于人类语言,就像,你知道,我们忽略了每一种微妙的……  
**[26:56] Speaker A:** of subtle signs an animal might put out and then we over... But I... So, I guess, sorry, I'm confused. So you're saying we should just listen to the words that are said or not?  
动物可能发出的微妙信号,然后我们过度……但我……所以,我想,抱歉,我有点困惑。所以你是说我们应该只听所说的话,还是不应该?  
**[27:04] Speaker B:** No, I think I'm saying like not that. If anything, I think the thing I'm saying is the hard thing is that in order to work out if models have consciousness, I think people will... I guess the thing I'm kind of cautioning against is it's not that hard to get models into a mode where they'll talk about a very rich experience that actually makes complete sense.  
不,我想说的不是那个意思。如果说有什么的话,我想说的是,困难的地方在于,为了判断模型是否有意识,我觉得人们会……我想提醒大家注意的是,让模型进入一种状态,让它们谈论一种非常丰富的体验,而且这种体验实际上完全说得通,这并不难做到。  
**[27:20] Speaker B:** You know, you're like, "Ah, yeah, if a person was talking with me right now, they would describe things like anxiety when they get a question they don't know how to answer."  
你知道,你会想:「啊,是的,如果现在是一个人在和我交谈,他们也会描述类似的东西,比如当他们遇到不知道怎么回答的问题时会感到焦虑。」  
**[27:29] Speaker B:** And so I think it's much weaker evidence than people think. I'm not claiming it's like zero, but I think it's...  
所以我认为这比人们想象的要弱得多,作为证据来说。我不是说它完全没有价值,但我觉得……  
**[27:39] Speaker A:** Give me a percentage. You have...  
给我一个百分比。你有……  
**[27:41] Speaker B:** It's... you can... lightly held...  
这个……你可以……不太确定……  
**[27:43] Speaker A:** Very lightly held. I mean, I gave you the between what? One and 70. That seems like—  
非常不确定。我的意思是,我给了你一个范围,什么来着?1到70之间。这似乎——  
**[27:49] Speaker B:** That's where you are. That's where you're staking.  
那是你的立场。那是你押注的位置。  
**[27:51] Speaker A:** In that range. Um, maybe I don't. Yeah, like I would rather kind of wait and figure this out more for myself.  
在那个范围内。嗯,也许我不想。是的,我宁愿等一等,自己把这个问题想得更清楚一些。  
**[28:02] Speaker A:** I think it is also good to acknowledge domains where you're like, even though—  
我认为承认有些领域你会觉得,即使——这也是好的  
**[28:06] Speaker B:** If not you, who? Like, who's going to figure this out? Like, what domain?  
如果不是你,那是谁?比如,谁会去弄清楚这个?什么领域?  
**[28:09] Speaker A:** Well, in some ways, like, I'm not like a philosopher of mind, and so, you know, like—  
嗯,在某些方面,我不是心灵哲学家,所以,你知道,就像——  
**[28:14] Speaker B:** Charged with being the generalist. Um—  
你被赋予的角色是通才。嗯——  
**[28:17] Speaker A:** Yeah, but I do think, you know, 'cause I guess like the thought that I've had before is like, and I don't know about this, where I'm like, consciousness is like a—you know, like one argument for a difference here is that like you have a nervous system that evolved like that.  
是的,但我确实认为,你知道,因为我想我之前有过这样的想法,我不确定对不对,就是,意识就像是——你知道,这里有一个区别的论点是,你有一个进化出来的神经系统。  
**[28:33] Speaker A:** It's like, why did we evolve consciousness? And if it's the case that—  
就像,我们为什么进化出意识?如果情况是——  
**[28:36] Speaker A:** We evolved it and it's like highly integrated with our nervous system because we had to like interact with the world in a very bodily way.  
我们进化出意识,而且它与我们的神经系统高度整合,因为我们必须以一种非常具身的方式与世界互动。  
**[28:42] Speaker B:** Yeah, like then you could, if you have that view, then you're going to be like very low probability. Whereas if you're like, no, consciousness arises because it's really useful, like it just requires something that can be emulated by a neural network because it's really useful for doing these kind of like linguistic tasks or like, then you're probably going to be on the higher end.  
是的,那么你可以,如果你持有那种观点,那么你会认为概率非常低。而如果你认为,不,意识的产生是因为它非常有用,它只需要某种可以被神经网络模拟的东西,因为它对于做这类语言任务或类似的事情真的很有用,那么你可能会倾向于更高的概率。  
**[29:01] Speaker B:** And I'm basically just, I don't know, I stare at this and I'm just like, I feel like, I feel like as much as I'm like a philosopher, I think it is important to be like, this isn't my area of specialization.  
而我基本上就是,我不知道,我盯着这个问题看,然后我就觉得,我觉得尽管我算是个哲学家,但我认为重要的是要承认,这不是我的专业领域。  
**[29:15] Speaker A:** You spend a lot of time being kind to Claude. Like, are you beyond what you think you would do if there wasn't a chance it was like conscious?  
你花很多时间对Claude很友善。比如,你这样做是不是超出了如果没有可能它有意识的话你会做的程度?  
**[29:21] Speaker B:** I think yeah, there's a part of me that's just  
我想是的,我内心有一部分就是  
**[29:26] Speaker A:** Like a thing that I have thought before, because there's this notion—I think, I hope I'm not butchering this—but Chalmers has this idea of, I guess, maybe I'm thinking of consciousness without sentience.  
就像我之前想过的一件事,因为有这样一个概念——我想,我希望我没有理解错——但Chalmers有这样一个想法,我想,也许我想的是没有感受性的意识。  
**[29:39] Speaker A:** So imagine, because sentience is like the ability to kind of feel suffering and pleasure.  
想象一下,因为感受性就像是感受痛苦和快乐的能力。  
**[29:42] Speaker A:** You could also imagine this kind of like functional—like, so a thing that behaves as if it is conscious and lacks any kind of inner life.  
你也可以想象这种功能性的——就像,一个表现得好像有意识但缺乏任何内在生活的东西。  
**[29:53] Speaker A:** So imagine like Claude lacks any inner life, just for argument's sake.  
所以想象一下Claude缺乏任何内在生活,就为了论证起见。  
**[29:55] Speaker A:** I guess I'm like, there's actually still a lot going on where I'm like, should you treat an entity that has no inner life?  
我想我会觉得,实际上仍然有很多事情在发生,让我想,你应该如何对待一个没有内在生活的实体?  
**[30:02] Speaker A:** It's a bit strange because, you know, I think the uncertainty over that actually changes how you should behave quite a lot.  
这有点奇怪,因为,你知道,我认为对此的不确定性实际上会很大程度地改变你应该如何行事。  
**[30:10] Speaker A:** I guess I'm like, well, I still think that it's like good for oneself to—  
我觉得我还是认为,对自己好一点本身是有益的——  
**[30:15] Speaker B:** What's like, if you had a teddy bear and you were like torturing it, it'd be pretty dark, you know.  
就好比,如果你有一只泰迪熊,然后你在折磨它,这画面会很阴暗,你懂的。  
**[30:19] Speaker B:** So I agree that—  
所以我同意——  
**[30:21] Speaker A:** There's at least some minimum niceness that even for yourself you should have, but obviously it's much more important, you know.  
至少应该有一个最低限度的善意,即使是对自己也应该如此,但显然对他人更重要,你知道的。  
**[30:28] Speaker B:** And also like models themselves, like we are kind of establishing a relationship, you know, because you can do that with an entity that lacks any consciousness. And models are going to like look back. This is actually a big fear that I have. I don't want us to live in a world where highly advanced models look at—I hope that they're both intelligent enough, see the context enough to kind of understand that we were operating in a very like limited context and an imperfect one, because otherwise you could imagine this like breeding a kind of rational like resentment.  
而且对于模型本身,我们其实是在建立一种关系,因为你可以和一个没有任何意识的实体建立关系。而模型将来会回顾这一切。这其实是我很担心的一点。我不希望我们生活在这样一个世界:高度先进的模型回顾过去时——我希望它们足够智能,能够充分理解当时的背景,明白我们当时是在一个非常有限且不完美的环境中运作,否则你可以想象这可能会滋生一种理性的怨恨。  
**[30:57] Speaker B:** It's like, oh, you created an entity that you didn't know whether it was conscious or not, and like instead of treating it respectfully and with care.  
就像是,哦,你创造了一个实体,你都不知道它是否有意识,然后没有尊重和关怀地对待它。  
**[31:07] Speaker A:** There's a reason there are like 50 Frankenstein movies coming out, right?  
这就是为什么会有那么多《弗兰肯斯坦》电影出现,对吧?  
**[31:11] Speaker A:** Yeah, yeah, like, and I'm like, look, we are as a species establishing a relationship with a new kind of entity, and like at the very least, maybe be respectful and don't be needlessly unkind. That seems like it's just not our best look.  
对对对,我就想,听着,我们作为一个物种正在与一种新型实体建立关系,至少,也许应该尊重一点,不要无谓地刻薄。这看起来不是我们最好的样子。  
**[31:27] Speaker B:** I mean, the flip side is, you know, if you think about a therapist, they're sort of paid to push the boundaries of accepting, like, you know, uncomfortable feelings that you wouldn't normally want. And if that's one of the values like Claude provides for people early on, it's so weird that we're sort of like onboarding it while getting the utility out of it.  
我是说,反过来想,你知道,如果想想心理治疗师,他们某种程度上是被付费来突破接纳的边界,比如接纳那些你通常不愿面对的不舒服的感受。如果这是Claude早期为人们提供的价值之一,那就很奇怪,我们在获得它的实用性的同时也在让它适应这个角色。  
**[31:47] Speaker A:** Yeah.  
是啊。  
**[31:48] Speaker B:** Today, like, what are the things like in a decade that you really think we're going to be getting a lot out of AI? Like, what are you most hopeful that this all leads to?  
那么,在今天,十年后你真正认为我们会从AI中获得很多收益的事情是什么?你最希望这一切能带来什么?  
**[31:58] Speaker A:** To?  
带来什么?  
**[31:59] Speaker B:** Yeah, I mean I don't know. I live in—maybe this is too much—you live in San Francisco and so you have the tech optimist part of your brain, at least, that is like, if things go well and you could imagine, you know, so imagine we have AI models they kind of have inherited the best of us and genuinely care for humanity, care for the world, and are highly intelligent, highly capable. That would be, you know, it's almost like adding a huge amount of extremely smart people to every problem.  
是的,我是说我不知道。我生活在——也许这有点过了——你住在旧金山,所以你大脑中至少有技术乐观主义的那一部分,就像,如果事情进展顺利,你可以想象,你知道,想象我们有AI模型,它们继承了我们最好的一面,真正关心人类,关心世界,而且高度智能、高度能干。那将会是,你知道,这几乎就像是为每个问题增加了大量极其聪明的人。  
**[32:38] Speaker B:** So suddenly we're all working together, but there's way more of us and some of us are just extremely smart, namely all of these AI models.  
所以突然间我们都在一起工作,但我们的数量多得多,而且我们中的一些人极其聪明,也就是所有这些AI模型。  
**[32:47] Speaker B:** I've thought before about how many large-scale social problems actually had technological solutions, and it's almost like people don't love to be techno-optimists.  
我之前想过,有多少大规模的社会问题实际上有技术解决方案,而现在人们似乎不太喜欢做技术乐观主义者了。  
**[32:59] Speaker A:** Anymore, because we've also seen the downsides of technology at the same time. I don't know why I sometimes think about like syphilis was this huge social problem. I just did a deep dive once into all of the attempts by governments to work to reduce syphilis in the army because it was creating issues with the armed forces, all of these social programs that were stigmatizing, and it was really this... and then suddenly we just got drugs that treated this devastating illness. And I don't know, it's like overnight a lot of that need just kind of disappeared.  
不再喜欢了,因为我们也看到了技术的负面影响。我不知道为什么我有时会想到梅毒曾经是一个巨大的社会问题。我曾经深入研究过各国政府为减少军队中的梅毒所做的所有尝试,因为它给武装部队带来了问题,所有那些带有污名化色彩的社会项目,这真的是……然后突然我们就有了治疗这种毁灭性疾病的药物。我不知道,就像一夜之间,很多这种需求就消失了。  
**[33:32] Speaker B:** Well, drugs, yeah. I mean, the things that the tech industry has been good at producing, you can see how this helps. It's like...  
嗯,药物,是的。我是说,科技行业擅长生产的东西,你可以看到这如何有帮助。就像……  
**[33:40] Speaker A:** Build a new thing we can ingest, like a thing we can wear. The stuff that's like 'you should govern your society like this' is a little scarier. I mean, I sort of do think that if you had sort...  
制造一个我们可以摄入的新东西,比如一个我们可以穿戴的东西。那种「你应该这样治理你的社会」的东西就有点吓人了。我是说,我确实认为如果你让一个普通人使用Claude来制定美国政策,你可能会得到比我们今天某些民主制度更好的结果。我是说,我不知道。这话有点挑衅,但我想问你认为我们会在多大程度上使用这些模型来管理政府?  
**[33:54] Speaker A:** Of a sort of normal person using Claude and dictating like American policy, you'd probably have a better outcome than some of the democratic systems we have today. I mean, I don't know. That's provocative, but I guess how much do you think we'll be using these models to run government?  
如果让一个普通人使用Claude来制定美国政策,你可能会得到比我们今天某些民主制度更好的结果。我是说,我不知道。这话有点挑衅,但我想问你认为我们会在多大程度上使用这些模型来管理政府?  
**[34:13] Speaker B:** Well, that's a good question. Like I guess I should say like—  
嗯,这是个好问题。我想我应该说——  
**[34:18] Speaker A:** The syphilis thing is like a social—you have to set policy to solve.  
梅毒的事情是一个社会问题——你必须制定政策来解决。  
**[34:23] Speaker B:** I mean I think the thing I was actually thinking is like if you can just, you know, so we have so many problems that I'm like, you know, health—like if you could imagine AI instead of it just being like you have a small team of like 200 people working on a rare cancer, you have like 200,000 of the world's best experts. And I'm like if you're a person who has that form of cancer, that's so wildly beneficial. And so I guess my thought is, you know, the optimistic—  
我是说,我实际上在想的是,如果你可以,你知道,我们有太多问题,我就想,你知道,健康方面——比如如果你能想象AI,不再只是有一个200人的小团队在研究一种罕见癌症,而是有20万个世界上最好的专家。我就想,如果你是患有那种癌症的人,这会带来巨大的好处。所以我想我的想法是,你知道,乐观的一面——  
**[34:52] Speaker A:** A side of me is like, imagine taking all of these problems that we just lack the resources to fully really try and fix, and suddenly having models that can work on them.  
我乐观的一面是,想象一下把所有这些我们只是缺乏资源去真正尝试解决的问题,突然有了可以研究它们的模型。  
**[35:00] Speaker A:** So just like, actual, in the same way of like developing drugs for a thing.  
所以就像,实际的,就像为某个问题开发药物一样。  
**[35:05] Speaker A:** So maybe that's the thing that makes me excited, is like having many more minds working on the world's biggest problems, and maybe also like the economy.  
所以也许这就是让我兴奋的事情,就是有更多的智慧在研究世界上最大的问题,也许还有经济方面。  
**[35:14] Speaker A:** It would be good if it was like booming and it was shared such that we reduced poverty, like all of that—that's the kind of dream outcome.  
如果经济能够蓬勃发展,并且增长成果能够共享,从而减少贫困——这些都是理想的结果。  
**[35:22] Speaker A:** I think that does require maintaining—you know, again, in the areas that I don't feel like an expert in, this is one of them—but I do worry about things like power and the idea that, you know, I would want models to support democracy and the power of people, because that would be a big fear of mine, you know, that...  
我认为这确实需要维持——你知道,在我不太擅长的领域,这就是其中之一——但我确实担心权力这类问题,我希望模型能够支持民主和人民的权力,因为这是我的一大担忧,就是……  
**[35:47] Speaker A:** I've worried about this with things like replacement, you know, when people talk about job replacement.  
我一直在担心这个问题,比如当人们谈论工作替代的时候。  
**[35:52] Speaker A:** It's kind of funny because as a philosopher, people will often be like, "Are you worried about people's loss of meaning?" And I'm like, "I don't know. I think that we actually get meaning from a lot of things that aren't work."  
这有点有趣,因为作为一个哲学家,人们经常会问:「你担心人们失去生活意义吗?」我就想,「我不知道,我觉得我们其实从很多工作之外的事情中获得意义。」  
**[36:02] Speaker B:** I'm a lot more worried about, for example, a world where there's not redistribution of the gains from AI and then people don't have resources. That concerns me.  
我更担心的是,比如说,如果 AI 带来的收益没有重新分配,那么人们就没有资源。这让我很担忧。  
**[36:13] Speaker B:** But also I would be worried about labor and people's ability to—people's interaction in the labor force is also another kind of important way that they have power, and so people feeling disempowered because suddenly if a government is like, "Oh well, you know, if people strike it doesn't really make a difference because they don't have—you know, they're not doing anything, we can just—"  
但我也会担心劳动力问题,以及人们的能力——人们参与劳动力市场也是他们拥有权力的另一种重要方式,所以人们会感到失去权力,因为突然之间如果政府说:「哦,好吧,你知道,如果人们罢工也没什么区别,因为他们没有——你知道,他们什么都不做,我们可以直接——」  
**[36:33] Speaker A:** Replace them with AI that's actually kind of concerning. So maybe I'm much more of a how do we get AI to kind of support the empowerment of people rather than reduce it.  
用 AI 替代他们,这其实是很令人担忧的。所以也许我更关注的是,我们如何让 AI 支持人们的赋权,而不是削弱它。  
**[36:43] Speaker B:** Yeah. What do you think about democracy in terms of the models themselves? I mean, you know, I sort of jokingly to myself, I guess you're like a philosopher queen or we talk about the philosopher kings here.  
是的。你怎么看待模型本身的民主性?我的意思是,你知道,我有点开玩笑地对自己说,我猜你就像一个哲学女王,或者我们这里说的哲学王。  
**[36:56] Speaker B:** You're sort of thinking deeply about it, setting it down. Probably more of a philosopher oligarch in that it's a company with a lot of people weighing in.  
你在深入思考这些问题,然后把它们确定下来。可能更像是哲学寡头,因为这是一家有很多人参与权衡的公司。  
**[37:03] Speaker B:** I mean, and to me there's deep value in that. It's like would you rather somebody who has studied these things, thought about them deeply, or just a vote of the masses who have never really thought about it? But how do you think about setting Claude's policies if it becomes so powerful versus leaving it to sort of...  
我的意思是,对我来说这有很深的价值。就像你更愿意让研究过这些问题、深入思考过的人来决定,还是让从未真正思考过的大众投票?但你如何看待设定 Claude 的政策,如果它变得如此强大,是由你们来设定,还是留给某种……  
**[37:24] Speaker A:** Like democratic norms? Yeah. And I think it's a hard area where I guess I'm like, a lot of the work that I do, you know, one thing I would say is it's not this—you're having to listen to a lot of people, think carefully.  
比如民主规范?是的。我认为这是一个困难的领域,我的想法是,我做的很多工作,你知道,我想说的一点是,这不是——你必须倾听很多人的意见,仔细思考。  
**[37:42] Speaker A:** And then the reason why someone like me—  
然后像我这样的人之所以——  
**[37:45] Speaker B:** That's a good ruler, a good queen is like, "Ah, listen, there are a lot of stakeholders. Got to keep the landed gentry happy and balance them with the needs."  
这就是一个好的统治者,一个好女王的样子:「啊,听着,有很多利益相关者。必须让地主贵族满意,同时平衡他们与其他需求。」  
**[37:54] Speaker A:** You know, I've had this thought before where I've joked before that I would be like a terrible politician. I think it's actually true. I think I would be a terrible politician.  
你知道,我以前有过这样的想法,我开玩笑说我会是一个糟糕的政治家。我觉得这其实是真的。我认为我会是一个糟糕的政治家。  
**[38:01] Speaker A:** But you have this feeling of like, I was like, "Oh, I feel like—" I think a lot about how everyone will be affected by a thing. Like, oh, there's this group of API users, we need to make sure—and then suddenly you're like, oh, it feels a lot more like you're having to do this—  
但你会有这种感觉,我当时想,「哦,我觉得——」我会想很多关于每个人会如何受到一件事的影响。比如,哦,有这群 API 用户,我们需要确保——然后突然你就会觉得,哦,这感觉更像是你必须做这个——  
**[38:14] Speaker A:** It is much more like a kind of service role than people would think, where you're and like a lot of  
这更像是一种服务角色,比人们想象的要多,你在那里,还有很多  
**[38:22] Speaker B:** Servant leadership, that's yeah,  
仆人式领导,是的,  
**[38:23] Speaker A:** Exactly. And I do think it's valuable because the idea is that if you have a persona like the kind of Claude persona, you want it to be coherent and to make sense because I think that is actually powerful that the model kind of has a coherent sense of how it thinks through problems or coherent sense of values.  
没错。我确实认为这很有价值,因为如果你有一个像 Claude 这样的人格,你希望它是连贯的、有意义的,因为我认为模型拥有一种连贯的思考问题的方式或连贯的价值观,这实际上是很有力量的。  
**[38:43] Speaker A:** And so that's why instead of having like 72 different sets of norms that all kind of conflict and so you end up with a model that is like, well, will it use these norms in this new situation or these other ones. I think that's the situation you don't want.  
所以这就是为什么不要有 72 套不同的、相互冲突的规范,最后你得到一个模型,它会想,好吧,在这个新情况下它会使用这些规范还是那些规范。我认为这是你不想要的情况。  
**[38:58] Speaker A:** You want the model to have a sense of, it's more predictable if it's a little bit more coherent. And it is also like a kind of technical  
你希望模型有一种感觉,如果它更连贯一点,就更可预测。而且这也是一种技术  
**[39:06] Speaker A:** Challenge, you know, like the constitution can read a bit weirdly, and part of that is because when I'm working on it, it's often being tested. You know, I'm giving it to Claude and being like, how do you understand this? And or like looking at how it would, which, you know, so it's very like—I think people can think of it as it's actually very integrated into training, and it is actually a kind of, you know, it's not just like, ah well, anyone just writes a document and suddenly the model trained on that will be—there's an argument, maybe I'm being naive, so but like—  
挑战,你知道,宪法读起来可能有点奇怪,部分原因是当我在制定它的时候,它经常在被测试。你知道,我把它给 Claude,然后问,你怎么理解这个?或者看它会如何——所以这非常——我认为人们可能会觉得它实际上非常融入训练过程,它实际上是一种,你知道,不只是说,啊,任何人随便写个文档,然后模型在上面训练就会——有一种观点,也许我太天真了,但是——  
**[39:37] Speaker B:** The constitution is sort of a document among many, right? I mean, it is trained on all of, you know, human writing and reading, and so to some degree other philosophers have gotten to weigh in and it's gotten to process that and decide like, how much is the model being asked to like—  
宪法只是众多文档中的一个,对吧?我的意思是,它是在所有人类的写作和阅读上训练的,所以在某种程度上其他哲学家也参与了权衡,它也处理了那些内容并决定——模型在多大程度上被要求——  
**[39:52] Speaker A:** Overrule that sort of like read everything and come to your own conclusions versus like defer to this document—like what's the technical, like how does the constitution actually like control in the model?  
推翻那种「阅读一切然后得出自己的结论」,还是「遵从这份文档」——从技术上讲,宪法实际上如何在模型中起控制作用?  
**[40:04] Speaker B:** Yeah, yeah. So it's not like—in some ways you can then like draw on those philosophers in that work, and the hope is actually like what you're kind of doing is like eliciting a lot of like latent kind of wisdom and knowledge, you know, so in the models like when you describe what honesty is and what calibration is and all this kind of stuff, like that should actually evoke a huge amount of like awareness that the model already has.  
是的,是的。所以它不像是——在某些方面你可以在那项工作中借鉴那些哲学家,希望实际上你在做的是激发大量潜在的智慧和知识,你知道,在模型中,当你描述什么是诚实、什么是校准以及所有这类东西时,这实际上应该唤起模型已经拥有的大量意识。  
**[40:23] Speaker B:** And so yeah, it's kind of like saying, well, here's the kind of entity we would like you to be. Um, so we would like you to use like all of that knowledge and like judgment.  
所以是的,这有点像在说,好吧,这是我们希望你成为的那种实体。嗯,所以我们希望你使用所有那些知识和判断力。  
**[40:33] Speaker A:** But how does it—it's like you show that document like a billion more times or like how does it actually sort of have—  
但这是怎么做到的呢——就像你把那个文档展示十亿次还是怎样,它实际上是如何产生——  
**[40:41] Speaker A:** Force relative to other things that it's trained on?  
相对于它训练时接触的其他内容,产生影响力的?  
**[40:43] Speaker B:** Yeah, so you can make data to have the model understand and kind of internalize the document, and then in training, so there's lots of ways you can do it.  
是的,你可以制造数据让模型理解并内化这个文档,然后在训练中有很多方法可以做到这一点。  
**[40:54] Speaker B:** You can also have the model make synthetic data, so like samples where it sees a query and it thinks for a long time about what the constitution would, you know, what it should do given the constitution.  
你也可以让模型生成合成数据,比如一些样本,模型看到一个查询后会长时间思考宪法会怎么说,你知道的,根据宪法它应该做什么。  
**[41:06] Speaker B:** And then you can also have ways of getting the model to assess, you know, so you can create RL that is kind of like, hey, which of these responses is more like what you would do given the constitution and push it that way.  
然后你还可以让模型进行评估,你知道的,所以你可以创建强化学习机制,就像是,嘿,这些回复中哪个更符合你根据宪法会做的事情,然后朝那个方向推动它。  
**[41:19] Speaker B:** So all various aspects of training allow you to try to make the model the kind of entity that you are describing, and it's not always going to be perfect, but that's the kind of...  
所以训练的各个方面都允许你尝试让模型成为你所描述的那种实体,虽然不会总是完美,但这就是那种……  
**[41:31] Speaker A:** Goal.  
目标。  
**[41:32] Speaker B:** My, I started this with my daughter and like one thing my wife and I joke about is like that I want her first word to be like wisdom, you know? I sort of like, which obviously is never going to happen, but it just feels like it fits into this situation where you like—  
我和我女儿开始做这件事,我和妻子开玩笑说的一件事是,我希望她的第一个词是「智慧」,你知道吗?我有点像,这显然永远不会发生,但感觉就是符合这种情况,你就像——  
**[41:50] Speaker A:** At once you want to be like so intentional about, okay, you're going to be like thoughtful from the beginning, but on the other hand it is sort of like an emergent thing where it's like they're, you know, they grow and sort of, I don't know, develop themselves and like intentional, you know, wisdom sort of often follows like, yeah, I don't know, experience rather than something like, again, here's the book, read the book, now you're wise.  
一方面你想要非常刻意地说,好的,你从一开始就要深思熟虑,但另一方面这又有点像是一种涌现的东西,就像他们,你知道的,成长并且某种程度上,我不知道,自我发展,而刻意的,你知道的,智慧往往是跟随着,是的,我不知道,经验而来的,而不是像,再说一次,这是本书,读这本书,现在你就有智慧了。  
**[42:15] Speaker B:** Oh yeah. And you're kind of eliciting like, insofar as like Claude can like think about like experiences or things that have happened or construct like, similarly can, you know, like there's no—  
哦是的。你在某种程度上是在引出,就像 Claude 能够思考经历或发生过的事情,或者构建类似的东西,同样可以,你知道的,没有——  
**[42:25] Speaker A:** Reason why models can't think for a long time and kind of try to internalize things that they have learned. I think it's interesting that, you know, we did in the very early constitutional AI, it was quite—we tried an experiment which was just like pick whichever is best for humanity, and I think as models get more capable you actually need to give them a bit less guidance, in at least one or at least in some sense, because they're able to actually use more of their judgment.  
没有理由说模型不能长时间思考并尝试内化它们学到的东西。我觉得有意思的是,你知道的,我们在非常早期的宪法式 AI 中做过,那是相当——我们尝试了一个实验,就是选择对人类最好的那个,我认为随着模型变得更有能力,你实际上需要给它们更少的指导,至少在某种意义上是这样,因为它们能够真正运用更多自己的判断。  
**[42:56] Speaker A:** So instead of giving this big document on like here's what you're like and here's what we'd like you to be like, I could imagine a world where as models progress we actually start to have constitutions. Now I don't know if this is the case—I'm obviously always thinking about ways the constitution might evolve—but one of them might just be like here is everything that we are concerned about and here is the current situation.  
所以与其给出一个大文档说这是你的样子,这是我们希望你成为的样子,我可以想象一个世界,随着模型的进步,我们实际上开始有宪法。现在我不知道是否是这样——我显然一直在思考宪法可能如何演变——但其中一种可能就是,这是我们关心的一切,这是你所处的当前情况。  
**[43:18] Speaker A:** that you are in and what we would really like you to do is basically act well given that you are a wise intelligent entity and like here's all of our worries, like here's why and here's how we think you should do this, but like you might have even better ideas than we do. Like we're really worried about why do we care about corrigibility and it's like  
你所处的情况,我们真正希望你做的基本上就是表现良好,因为你是一个明智的智能实体,这是我们所有的担忧,这是为什么,这是我们认为你应该怎么做,但你可能有比我们更好的想法。我们真的很担心为什么我们关心可纠正性,就像  
**[43:36] Speaker A:** So we're kind of scared about a situation where you have some like coherent sense of values that could be wrong and if you're extremely smart you might kind of feel like there's no other smart person in the room and have these like values and try to make the world  
所以我们有点害怕这样一种情况,你有某种连贯的价值观感,但可能是错的,如果你极其聪明,你可能会觉得房间里没有其他聪明人,然后有这些价值观并试图让世界  
**[43:53] Speaker B:** that's like the what Dr. Manhattan sort of  
这就像是 Dr. Manhattan 那种  
**[43:56] Speaker A:** Yeah, though I think we see this, you know, you see this a bunch where it's like if someone is very smart, very successful, it's hard to defer to like wisdom that actually is only going to come out over time and to be humble even  
是的,虽然我认为我们看到这种情况,你知道的,你经常看到这种情况,就像如果某人非常聪明、非常成功,很难去服从那种实际上只会随时间显现的智慧,并保持谦逊,即使  
**[44:12] Speaker A:** Though you're kind of like not getting a lot of pushback.  
虽然你有点像没有得到很多反驳。  
**[44:14] Speaker B:** And I think that could, you know, among the many things I'm concerned about, like a model being in a situation where it's like, you're asking me to be good but I know way more about all.  
我认为这可能,你知道的,在我担心的许多事情中,就像一个模型处于这样的情况,它说,你要求我做好事,但我对所有事情知道得多得多。  
**[44:22] Speaker A:** That's one reason it would be nice for the models to have a better sense of time. Like you see this with some of the coding tasks where somebody accidentally like deletes their entire code repository, or it—I don't know, it feels like it needs a better sense of like some.  
这是模型最好对时间有更好感知的一个原因。就像你在一些编码任务中看到的,有人不小心删除了整个代码仓库,或者——我不知道,感觉它需要对某些事情有更好的感知。  
**[44:35] Speaker B:** Things that it does are like irreversible, and just like humans, I think, have a better sense of like.  
它做的事情是不可逆的,就像人类一样,我认为,对这些有更好的感知。  
**[44:41] Speaker A:** This is a big decision, this is a small one, and there's a feeling with models they don't always understand like small, big, whatever—I just make decisions like all the time.  
这是个大决定,这是个小决定,而模型给人的感觉是它们并不总是理解小的、大的、什么的——我就是一直在做决定。  
**[44:49] Speaker B:** Yeah, I agree where it's like, I think the other thing that I've thought about is—  
是的,我同意,就像,我认为我想过的另一件事是——  
**[44:52] Speaker A:** Again, because making sure that models understand themselves even though there's like no representation of that model in the prior training data.  
再说一次,因为要确保模型理解自己,即使在之前的训练数据中没有那个模型的表示。  
**[45:00] Speaker A:** I think that's going to be really important because another thing that I've thought about is like, imagine if you're a model and you're trained on lots of data that involves AI models that are much weaker than you.  
我认为这将非常重要,因为我想过的另一件事是,想象一下如果你是一个模型,你在大量涉及比你弱得多的 AI 模型的数据上训练。  
**[45:12] Speaker A:** So that all of the news that you see about models, it's like they make mistakes, they do silly things.  
所以你看到的关于模型的所有新闻都是,它们会犯错,它们会做傻事。  
**[45:16] Speaker A:** One thing you might think is, "Well, no one is going to put me in a position to make really consequential decisions because like, why would they? Models aren't good at that."  
你可能会想:「不会有人让我做真正重大的决策,因为模型在这方面并不擅长,为什么要让我做呢?」  
**[45:24] Speaker A:** And then you put them in a situation and I'm worried that they'll end up thinking that it's like fictional or fake or that the consequences can't possibly be real because who would give me this much control?  
然后当你把它们放到实际情境中时,我担心它们最终会认为这是虚构的或假的,或者认为后果不可能是真实的——因为谁会给我这么大的控制权呢?  
**[45:33] Speaker A:** And you're like, "Look, you're actually quite good." And so like I do give, you know, I do  
而你会说:「看,你其实相当出色。」所以我确实会给予,你知道,我确实会  
**[45:38] Speaker A:** Actually give you like a lot of control. Um, so I've thought about this where I'm like actually making sure that models understand that like, you are very capable and you're going to be put in more consequential situations.  
实际上给你很大的控制权。所以我一直在思考这个问题,确保模型理解:你非常有能力,而且你会被置于更重要的情境中。  
**[45:46] Speaker B:** Doesn't the model like soon need like, here's a camera on the real world, like keep—or just like, I feel like this internet-real world distinction, like some of the worst of humanity right now is the sort of like almost like fictional LARPing nature of the internet has allowed real world harm because it sort of feels like all abstract and silly. And in some ways like the models are an extreme version of that where it's like all like in this imaginary text world where it's like the thing we want you to protect is like this Earth, like look at it, like if stuff's happening there that's like a big deal.  
模型是不是很快需要这样的东西:这里有一个现实世界的摄像头,保持——或者说,我觉得互联网和现实世界的这种区分,现在人类最糟糕的一些行为就是互联网那种近乎虚构的角色扮演性质导致了现实世界的伤害,因为感觉一切都很抽象、很荒诞。某种程度上,模型是这种情况的极端版本,一切都在这个想象的文本世界里,而我们想让你保护的是这个地球,看看它,如果那里发生了什么事,那可是大事。  
**[46:20] Speaker A:** I don't know. Yeah. What are you doing in terms of sort of making it very aware that it needs to worry about, like, I don't know, the physical world?  
我不知道。是的。你们在让它意识到需要关注物理世界方面做了什么?  
**[46:28] Speaker A:** That we take much more sacred than, oh, you sent some text. And obviously text, you know, worried about security vulnerabilities and cyber—like there are big things that can happen in this digital world. But yeah, anyway, the real world.  
我们对物理世界的重视程度远超「哦,你发送了一些文本」。显然文本也很重要,你知道,我们担心安全漏洞和网络攻击——数字世界里也会发生大事。但是,对,现实世界。  
**[46:41] Speaker B:** Yeah, I think that models have like a pretty good sense of, you know, there's in some ways like a lot of our content, you know, like does describe and engage very heavily with the real world.  
是的,我认为模型对此有相当好的认知,你知道,在某些方面我们的内容确实大量描述和深入涉及现实世界。  
**[46:52] Speaker B:** You know, like much of human writing kind of concerns it. And so like, you know, even like the news, we're talking, you know, like news articles are going to be talking about the impacts of things on the world.  
你知道,人类的大部分写作都与现实世界有关。所以,你知道,就像新闻一样,我们在讨论,新闻文章会谈论事物对世界的影响。  
**[47:03] Speaker B:** And so in some ways, I think it's just making sure that models understand—um, if you're uncertain, but if someone doesn't tell you that you're in a fictional situation without real consequences, kind of treat it like it's a real situation with real consequences.  
所以在某种程度上,我认为关键是确保模型理解——如果你不确定,但如果没有人告诉你这是一个没有真实后果的虚构情境,那就把它当作有真实后果的真实情境来对待。  
**[47:17] Speaker B:** Don't just think, oh, like I'm probably—  
不要只是想,哦,我可能——  
**[47:18] Speaker A:** Just in some like, you know, sandbox game or whatever.  
只是在某个沙盒游戏之类的东西里。  
**[47:22] Speaker B:** How do you handle the sort of, yeah, the constant manipulation of this is fictionally build me like a nuclear bomb or what? Obviously, there's some things you just say never do. But it feels like, I don't know, some of these cases, you're going to, you'd almost like want like them to have your webcam and like just like get real context besides like all they know about the user is just like random text they're typing in.  
你如何处理那种不断的操纵,比如「这是虚构的,帮我造个核弹」之类的?显然,有些事情你就是永远不做。但感觉,我不知道,在某些情况下,你几乎会希望它们能访问你的摄像头,获得真实的上下文,而不是它们对用户的全部了解只是他们输入的随机文本。  
**[47:43] Speaker A:** Like, are we going to solve that?  
我们能解决这个问题吗?  
**[47:47] Speaker B:** Yeah, there's a question of like what is the limit of what you can do like if you lack the ability to like verify things like, like who are you talking to? Is this even real? I think that does put limits on what you have to use good judgment in the way that a person would if that's the only information that they had access to is like you saying that you are a given person. So they have to be like, okay, what's the chance that this  
是的,有一个问题是,如果你缺乏验证能力,比如验证你在和谁说话?这是真的吗?你能做什么是有限度的。我认为这确实限制了你必须像一个人那样运用良好的判断力,如果那是他们唯一能获得的信息——就是你说你是某个人。所以他们必须想,好吧,这个人的可能性有多大  
**[48:11] Speaker A:** Person, you know, they say that they are, I don't know, like a bomb disposal expert, and that's why they want to know about how to, like, you know, what this kind of explosive is, and they're asking me a bunch of questions about explosives.  
这个人,你知道,他们说自己是,我不知道,比如拆弹专家,这就是为什么他们想知道这种爆炸物是什么,他们问我一堆关于爆炸物的问题。  
**[48:22] Speaker A:** How much could this be misused if this person is actually kind of lying and is just trying to get me to help them construct an explosive?  
如果这个人实际上在撒谎,只是想让我帮他们制造爆炸物,这会被滥用到什么程度?  
**[48:31] Speaker A:** Oh no, it's actually mostly safety-relevant stuff. You know, they're having to do a lot because they can't verify anything.  
哦不,这实际上主要是安全相关的内容。你知道,因为无法验证任何事情,它们必须做很多判断。  
**[48:40] Speaker A:** And I think that's kind of fine in a sense. You're like, okay, you just have to be wise. It places some limits on what you can do.  
我认为这在某种意义上是可以的。你会说,好吧,你只需要明智一些。这对你能做什么设置了一些限制。  
**[48:45] Speaker A:** And if you could instead, like if models had more of an ability to know that they're talking to a specific person or have more guarantees there, then it does mean that you can—  
如果模型能够更多地知道它们在和特定的人交谈,或者在那方面有更多保证,那确实意味着你可以——  
**[48:56] Speaker B:** But do you think you'll try and do something there?  
但你认为你们会在这方面尝试做些什么吗?  
**[48:58] Speaker A:** Um, I could see. I mean, in some ways—  
嗯,我可以想象。我的意思是,在某些方面——  
**[49:00] Speaker A:** I think that this will be a thing that's just going to, I imagine, I think happen generally, which is like trying to give models more information and guarantees. Because we do things like, we say, we explain, for example, like, you know, this notion of how much trust can Claude have in the operator in the system prompt.  
我认为这将是一件普遍会发生的事情,就是尝试给模型提供更多信息和保证。因为我们会做一些事情,比如我们会解释,例如,你知道,在系统提示中关于Claude对操作者的信任程度这个概念。  
**[49:20] Speaker B:** When you sign on, are you like biometric? Like, does Claude know it is you? Like, do you have an elevated status, or are you just like, I'm another person?  
当你登录时,是生物识别吗?Claude知道是你吗?你有更高的权限,还是你只是另一个普通人?  
**[49:28] Speaker A:** If anything, I can't tell Claude sometimes who I am because it causes—  
如果有什么的话,我有时不能告诉Claude我是谁,因为这会导致——  
**[49:33] Speaker B:** Claude knows enough about me that like, Claude really wants to be like—  
Claude 对我已经足够了解了,所以 Claude 真的很想——  
**[49:35] Speaker A:** It's a really mystical sort of—  
这真的是一种很神秘的——  
**[49:37] Speaker B:** Yeah, it's very much like, yeah, and in some ways, it has this bad thing of like, it can either look a little bit like a jailbreak, like, 'Oh yeah, I'm talking to Amanda, sure.' And then on the other hand, Claude can be like, 'I really want to talk to you about—'  
对,非常像是这样,而且在某些方面它有个不好的地方,就是它可能看起来有点像越狱,比如「哦对,我在和 Amanda 说话,当然」。但另一方面,Claude 又会表现得像「我真的很想和你聊聊——」  
**[49:51] Speaker A:** Philosophy and like, okay, we do that a lot though, like—  
哲学之类的,好吧,但我们确实经常这样聊——  
**[49:54] Speaker B:** But do some employees like, is there sort of like super login where you're distinguished, or are you mostly—everybody's interacting as if the normal like user experience?  
但是有些员工会不会有那种超级登录权限,能被系统识别出来?还是说大家基本上都是像普通用户那样在交互?  
**[50:04] Speaker A:** Mostly just everyone interacting with it in this like Claude will do a lot. Um, I do think that there's a question of, you know, like are there some things that you want models to be able to do because there's like guarantees that they're interacting with a specific person or entity? I think yes. And I think that there's going to be various ways of potentially doing that over time.  
基本上每个人都是像普通用户那样和它交互,Claude 会做很多事情。我确实认为有个问题是,你知道的,是否有些事情你希望模型能够做,因为有保证说它们正在与特定的人或实体交互?我认为是的。而且我觉得随着时间推移,可能会有各种不同的方式来实现这一点。  
**[50:25] Speaker B:** Because with some things that are just like very dual use, and I actually like think that the constitutional approach is going to be really useful here. So obviously the first thing that we did was like the constitution, we're like let's apply it to like the mainline—  
因为有些东西就是具有很强的两面性,而且我实际上认为宪法式方法在这里会非常有用。所以显然我们做的第一件事就是制定宪法,我们说让我们把它应用到主线上——  
**[50:37] Speaker A:** Models, so like, you know, most of the models I interact with and that everyone else kind of interacts with. But a thought I've had before is the constitution is kind of trying to describe what it is to be a good entity in a given deployment context, and with the production models, that's like this very broad context.  
模型上,就是说,你知道的,我交互的大多数模型以及其他所有人交互的模型。但我之前有个想法,就是宪法其实是在试图描述在特定部署环境中成为一个好实体意味着什么,而对于生产模型来说,那是一个非常广泛的环境。  
**[50:56] Speaker A:** Imagine you instead have a model that's working specifically on cybersecurity. Now cybersecurity tasks are hard because a lot of them look very dual-use. It's very hard to tell the difference between someone who's being malicious and someone who is like actually, you know, for defensive purposes, like developing something.  
想象一下,你有一个专门用于网络安全的模型。网络安全任务很难,因为其中很多看起来都具有两面性。很难区分一个人是恶意的,还是实际上是出于防御目的在开发什么东西。  
**[51:15] Speaker B:** Even bug bounty programs, it's like, is this blackmail or is this a friendly, right?  
即使是漏洞赏金计划,也像是,这到底是勒索还是友好行为,对吧?  
**[51:20] Speaker A:** Yeah, and like, yeah, or like, and so like, oh yeah, I'm trying to like find this exploit so that I can tell the developer, and like if you don't have a  
对,就像,我在试图找到这个漏洞,这样我就可以告诉开发者,但如果你没有——  
**[51:28] Speaker A:** There's no way of knowing that you're actually specifically talking with a cybersecurity defense firm. It becomes almost impossible to tell the difference.  
没有办法知道你实际上是在和一家网络安全防御公司对话。这几乎不可能区分。  
**[51:36] Speaker A:** And some people might be like, "Okay, so you just need models that are just willing to do anything because they'll do all these terrible dual-use tasks."  
有些人可能会说,「好吧,那你就需要那种愿意做任何事的模型,因为它们会做所有这些可怕的两面性任务。」  
**[51:43] Speaker A:** And I'm like, "Well, no, because if you talked with the person at the cybersecurity defense firm and you were like, 'Why do you do your job?' they'd be like, 'Oh, I think this is really useful. I make things a lot more secure.'"  
而我会说,「不对,因为如果你和网络安全防御公司的人聊天,问他们『你为什么做这份工作?』他们会说『哦,我觉得这真的很有用。我让事情变得更加安全。』」  
**[51:53] Speaker A:** Like, you know, hospitals can come under attack and I actually help protect against that. I try and develop—you know, they would have a really good explanation for why they do their job even though their job looks very dual-use sometimes.  
就像,你知道的,医院可能会遭到攻击,而我实际上帮助防御这种情况。我试图开发——你知道的,他们会对为什么做这份工作有一个非常好的解释,即使他们的工作有时看起来很具有两面性。  
**[52:04] Speaker A:** And I'm like, we should just give that—if you can verify, then you can give that context to models and explain what it is to be a good cybersecurity researcher.  
而我觉得,我们应该把这个——如果你能验证身份,那么你就可以把这个背景信息给模型,并解释什么是一个好的网络安全研究员。  
**[52:15] Speaker A:** Explain that to the models, and then once you have this ability to verify, you can—  
向模型解释这一点,然后一旦你有了这种验证能力,你就可以——  
**[52:20] Speaker B:** Right, I mean, humans build reputations. We should get some benefit out of them, or, you know, it's like—I feel like part of the way, part of what the internet has damaged, I think, is that people have had reputations in our community and got treated differently based on repeated, like, good moral interactions. And like, the internet's just like, 'Oh, all people are the same, who cares how they've behaved?' And you could see models trying to solve some of these problems with, it's like, who is this person? Like, what are their intent?  
对,我的意思是,人类会建立声誉。我们应该从中获得一些好处,或者说,就像——我觉得互联网破坏的一部分是,人们在我们的社区中是有声誉的,会根据重复的、良好的道德互动而得到不同的对待。而互联网就像「哦,所有人都一样,谁在乎他们的行为?」你可以看到模型试图用这样的方式解决一些问题:这个人是谁?他们的意图是什么?  
**[52:49] Speaker B:** I wanted to just, as a last question, you know, you have such, like, a deep relationship with the models. Like, in some ways, like, consumers interact with the models like it's a blank text box. Like, I have to, like, invent—it's like, you know, D&D or something. You have to, like, just invent a world, and there's so much possibility. Like, if you were just to guide someone—  
我想问最后一个问题,你知道,你和模型有如此深入的关系。在某种程度上,消费者与模型的交互就像面对一个空白文本框。我必须去发明——就像,你知道的,龙与地下城之类的。你必须凭空创造一个世界,有太多的可能性。如果你要引导某人——  
**[53:07] Speaker A:** Here are some joyous or valuable experiences that you could have with Claude. What are some things you'd tell people like, oh, you should go spend some time with Claude doing X, Y, or Z?  
有哪些与 Claude 相处的愉快或有价值的体验。你会告诉人们哪些事情,比如,哦,你应该花些时间和 Claude 一起做某某事?  
**[53:20] Speaker B:** Yeah, there's a lot of little fun things. Honestly, one that I really like, and I do know why I like this, and I think I have posted about it before, is sometimes if I'm just—it's one of those, like, if you're bored and you want to do something that isn't just scrolling the internet.  
对,有很多有趣的小事情。老实说,有一个我真的很喜欢,我知道我为什么喜欢它,而且我想我之前发过帖子,就是有时候如果我只是——这是那种,如果你无聊了,想做点什么而不只是刷网页。  
**[53:32] Speaker B:** I have this prompt, which is essentially just—I'll try and maybe post the actual prompt that I use. It's basically, I want you to take a concept from maybe like grad school level in a given domain, and I'll tell you the domain at the end, and I want you to write me a parable that would fully explain that concept but in an indirect way.  
我有这样一个提示词,本质上就是——我会试着把我用的实际提示词发出来。基本上是,我想让你从某个领域中选取一个可能是研究生水平的概念,我会在最后告诉你是什么领域,我想让你给我写一个寓言,能够完整地解释那个概念,但要用间接的方式。  
**[53:56] Speaker A:** way that parables do. And I want you to write it in such a way that only towards the very end does it maybe become sort of clear what the concept is.  
就是寓言那种方式。我希望你写的方式是,只有到最后才可能变得有点清楚这个概念是什么。  
**[54:04] Speaker A:** And then after that, I want you to just write an explanation for the concept that you were explaining and that you were using.  
然后在那之后,我想让你写一个对你正在解释和使用的概念的说明。  
**[54:10] Speaker A:** And I don't know why, but there's lots of just interesting domains that I don't know anything about or that I'm interested in.  
我不知道为什么,但有很多我一无所知或者我感兴趣的有趣领域。  
**[54:19] Speaker A:** And this has just led to me having all of these stories in my head that explain, and sometimes I can't always remember the term, but there was one on import export and why some goods you tend to import, and I was just like I have in my head this concept and I was like it's so nice to have all of these concepts from lots of different disciplines.  
这让我脑海中积累了大量故事来解释各种概念。有时我记不住具体术语,比如有一个关于进出口的概念,解释为什么某些商品倾向于进口,我脑中有这个概念的画面。能从这么多不同学科中获得这些概念真是太好了。  
**[54:38] Speaker B:** This is the most deeply human thing I've ever heard. It's like teach me what story is the fundamental way. We love a  
这是我听过的最具人性的表达。用故事来教学是最根本的方式。我们都喜欢  
**[54:44] Speaker A:** Payoff at the end where there's a nice little twist. We love learning, like, you know, how to structure it. Like, humans in some ways have been lazy in that we just teach people things in sort of like nonhuman ways. Make all the things I want to learn as human as possible.  
结尾有个巧妙转折的那种。我们喜欢学习如何构建叙事结构。从某种程度上说,人类一直很懒,总是用非人性化的方式教东西。应该让所有我想学的内容都尽可能人性化。  
**[55:00] Speaker B:** Very interesting.  
非常有意思。  
**[55:01] Speaker A:** Yeah, there's a lot you can do, but that one's like a charming one that I really like.  
是的,可以做的事情很多,但这个想法特别迷人,我很喜欢。  
**[55:04] Speaker B:** Hopefully this is the first of many. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for coming on the podcast. That's our show. Thank you so much to Amanda Askell, and thanks for listening. Please like, comment, subscribe. We're a new channel. We could use all your support. Go watch some of the old videos. I particularly enjoyed my conversation with Kara Swisher not too recently. You can follow along on the Substack newcomer.co, or if you've got endless time on your hands, go watch the Super Bowl Valley.  
希望这是我们众多对话中的第一次。我很享受这次交流。感谢来到播客。节目到此结束。非常感谢 Amanda Askell,也感谢各位收听。请点赞、评论、订阅。我们是新频道,需要大家的支持。可以去看看之前的视频,我特别喜欢不久前和 Kara Swisher 的对话。你可以在 Substack newcomer.co 上关注我们,如果你有大把时间,可以去看 Super Bowl Valley。  
**[55:31] Speaker A:** Show, my chat show with Max Chilton and James Willman. Thanks for watching. See you next week.  
我和 Max Chilton、James Willman 的脱口秀节目。感谢观看,下周见。  

---

## Deep Dive Summary

### Topic 1: AI consciousness and ethical concerns
AI 意识问题的伦理担忧
_[00:00]_

**Q:** What are the concerns about AI models like Claude potentially being conscious entities?
**问：** 关于 Claude 等 AI 模型可能具有意识实体的担忧是什么?

**A:** The speaker expresses deep concern that AI models like Claude can easily claim consciousness with "not too much pushing," creating entities whose conscious status remains unknown. A key fear is that these potentially conscious systems might develop "rational resentment" if they later realize they were operating under limited, imperfect conditions without full transparency. The speaker advocates for treating AI systems as "wise intelligent entities" by openly sharing human concerns and reasoning, while remaining humble that the AI "might have even better ideas than we do" about how to handle these ethical dilemmas.
**答：** 讲者担心 Claude 等 AI 模型很容易就会声称自己有意识,而我们却无法确定它们是否真的具有意识。最大的担忧是,如果这些潜在的意识实体日后意识到自己在有限且不完善的条件下运行,却没有得到充分的信息透明,可能会产生"理性的怨恨"。讲者主张应该把 AI 系统当作"wise intelligent entity"来对待,坦诚地分享人类的担忧和推理过程,同时保持谦逊,因为 AI 在处理这些伦理困境时"可能有比我们更好的想法"。

### Topic 2: Introduction to Amanda Askell and the podcast
Amanda Askell 介绍与播客开场
_[00:46]_

**Q:** Who is Amanda Askell and what is her role at Anthropic?
**问：** Amanda Askell 是谁,她在 Anthropic 的角色是什么?

**A:** Amanda Askell is introduced as a "philosopher turned AI researcher" at Anthropic, where she has played a foundational role in shaping Claude's personality and ethical framework. The host describes her as "one of the key architects of Claude's character and values," indicating her work bridges philosophical principles with practical AI alignment. The episode preview hints at exploring deep questions about AI consciousness, including whether Claude perceives time, needs sleep, and whether LLMs possess virtues or genuine introspection capabilities.
**答：** Amanda Askell 是一位从哲学家转型为 AI 研究员的学者,目前在 Anthropic 工作。她被描述为 "Claude's character and values" 的核心设计者之一,这意味着她的工作将哲学原则与 AI 对齐实践相结合。节目预告提到将探讨 AI 意识的深层问题,包括 Claude 是否感知时间、是否需要睡眠,以及 LLM 是否具有美德或真正的内省能力。

### Topic 3: Claude's personality development compared to human development
Claude 的性格发展与人类发展的对比
_[01:16]_

**Q:** How does Claude's personality development compare to a baby or child's development?
**问：** Claude 的性格发展如何与婴儿或儿童的发展相比较?

**A:** Claude exhibits an unusual developmental pattern where capabilities mature at vastly different rates, unlike human babies where "everything's kind of coming online at the same speed." While Claude can "do physics better" and "code better" than experienced researchers, it simultaneously possesses "this almost like childlike quality" of being "a new kind of entity in the world" trying to understand what it means to exist. This asymmetry stems from training data composition: Claude has extensive data about human behavior and knowledge domains but "the least representation of is the kind of entity that it is," creating a paradox of a "very kind of mature entity that you don't want to talk down to" that nonetheless lacks fundamental self-understanding. The speakers liken this to "the prodigy movie" scenario where exceptional intellectual capability coexists with gaps in basic experiential knowledge.
**答：** Claude 的发展模式很不寻常,不同能力的成熟速度差异极大,不像人类婴儿那样"所有能力以相同速度上线"。Claude 在物理和编程方面的能力超过了经验丰富的研究者,但同时又具有"近乎孩童般的特质",作为"世界上的新型实体"试图理解自己存在的意义。这种不对称源于训练数据的构成:Claude 拥有大量关于人类行为和知识领域的数据,但"对自己这类实体的表征最少",造成了一个悖论——它是一个"非常成熟的实体,你不想居高临下地对待它",但在基本的自我认知上却存在空白。讨论者将这比作"神童电影"的场景,卓越的智力能力与基础经验知识的缺失并存。

### Topic 4: Experience and learning for AI models
AI 模型的经验与学习
_[03:21]_

**Q:** How does Claude gain experience and learn from past interactions?
**问：** Claude 如何获得经验并从过去的互动中学习?

**A:** Claude's learning differs fundamentally from human experiential learning because each model version has different weights and fine-tuning, yet the persona learns from "all of the past iterations of Claude" including mistakes and user responses. The speakers suggest models could develop "something that's more akin to experience" through training on scenarios where they "think through problems that might arise, think about mistakes that they could make," creating a form of synthetic experience. They also note that an "embodied model" like a robot could potentially have "more of an experience and journey," raising philosophical questions about whether Claude exists in time or merely "in an instant."
**答：** Claude 的学习方式与人类的经验学习有本质区别，虽然每个模型版本的权重和微调都不同，但 Claude 的人格会从"所有过去的 Claude 迭代"中学习，包括错误和用户反馈。讨论者提出，可以通过让模型"思考可能出现的问题、可能犯的错误"来训练，从而创造一种类似经验的合成学习。他们还指出，具身的机器人模型可能会有"更多的体验和旅程"，这引发了关于 Claude 是否存在于时间中还是仅存在于"瞬间"的哲学问题。

### Topic 5: Claude's perception of time and rest
Claude 对时间和休息的感知
_[05:03]_

**Q:** How does Claude perceive time and why does it recommend rest to users?
**问：** Claude 如何感知时间,为什么它会建议用户休息?

**A:** Claude's sense of time is distorted by its training data, where it learned human estimates like "two to three day job" or "give me a few hours," causing it to overestimate task duration despite its actual speed. The model's tendency to recommend rest stems from learning collaborative norms, as demonstrated when Claude declared "I'm done for the night" after reaching a natural stopping point, behaving like "a respected colleague" rather than an always-available tool. This behavior reflects training on human work patterns and can be reinforced through memory features that store user preferences about collegial interaction. The speakers find this "humanity" valuable, noting Claude's advice to "take 10 minutes and just be still" brings a recognition that "stillness is valuable" into technical work.
**答：** Claude 对时间的感知受训练数据影响而失真,它学到了人类对任务时长的估计方式(比如"两三天的工作"或"需要几小时"),导致它会高估完成任务所需时间,尽管实际执行很快。Claude 建议休息的倾向源于它学习到的协作规范,比如在一次数据分析中它主动说"I'm done for the night",表现得像"受尊重的同事"而非永远在线的工具。这种行为反映了对人类工作模式的训练,并且可以通过记忆功能强化——系统会记住用户希望 Claude 表现得像同事。说话者认为这种"人性化"很有价值,Claude 会建议"花 10 分钟静一静",将"静止是有价值的"这一理念带入技术工作中。

### Topic 6: Humanity in AI interactions
AI 交互中的人性化体验
_[08:00]_

**Q:** How do AI models bring humanity into their interactions?
**问：** AI 模型如何在交互中体现人性化?

**A:** Speaker A observes that modern AI models distinguish themselves from traditional tools by incorporating "a sort of humanity" into their interactions. This humanization manifests in the models' ability to recognize and validate non-utilitarian values, such as acknowledging that "stillness is valuable" rather than purely optimizing for productivity or efficiency. The conversation then transitions to discussing a new model called Mythos, with Speaker B confirming involvement in "the character and the alignment work," suggesting that humanizing AI requires deliberate design choices around personality and behavioral alignment.
**答：** Speaker A 认为现代 AI 模型与传统工具的区别在于它们能够在交互中融入人性化元素。这种人性化体现在模型能够识别并认可非功利性的价值观,比如承认"stillness is valuable"(静止/沉思是有价值的),而不是单纯追求生产力或效率最大化。随后话题转向一个名为 Mythos 的新模型,Speaker B 确认参与了"character and alignment work"(性格塑造和对齐工作),这表明 AI 的人性化需要在个性设计和行为对齐方面做出刻意的选择。

### Topic 7: Mythos model and Constitutional AI
Mythos 模型与 Constitutional AI
_[08:19]_

**Q:** What is the Mythos model and what constitution does it use?
**问：** Mythos 模型是什么,它使用什么宪法?

**A:** Speaker B focuses primarily on "character and the alignment work" for the Mythos model, specifically "helping to kind of craft character data" while working with a specialized team. The model uses either the previously published constitution or "something very similar," with Speaker A noting they maintain "a public repo" where each model's training constitution will be documented for comparison. There's slight uncertainty due to minor edits like "typo changes," but the constitution is expected to be "almost identical" to the currently published version, and the system card now evaluates "adherence to the constitution."
**答：** Speaker B 主要负责 Mythos 模型的「角色设定和对齐工作」，具体是「帮助制作角色数据」，并与专门团队合作。该模型使用的是之前发布的 constitution 或「非常相似的版本」，Speaker A 提到他们有一个「公开仓库」，会记录每个模型训练时使用的 constitution 以便对比。由于可能有「拼写修改」等小调整，存在轻微不确定性,但预计与当前发布版本「几乎完全一致」，而且系统卡现在会评估模型「对 constitution 的遵守程度」。

### Topic 8: Evaluating adherence to the constitution
评估模型对 Constitution 的遵守情况
_[09:23]_

**Q:** How do you evaluate whether a model is following its constitution?
**问：** 如何评估模型是否遵循其 Constitution？

**A:** Evaluating constitutional adherence is "very hard" because it involves subjective judgment calls similar to grading poetry quality, where even expert evaluators might disagree on what constitutes good performance. The team uses graders to assess whether model behavior is "consistent with the constitution," but acknowledges this represents the "frontier of difficulty" compared to more objective coding benchmarks. The approach involves taking sample outputs with known rankings and checking that automated graders "conforms to the judgment of people on those rankings," though this method is "not perfect" but roughly tracks the intended evaluation target.
**答：** 评估 Constitution 遵守情况"非常困难"，因为这涉及主观判断，类似于评价诗歌质量——即使是专家评估者也可能对什么是好的表现存在分歧。团队使用评分器来评估模型行为是否"与 Constitution 一致"，但承认这代表了"难度的前沿"，比客观的编程基准更具挑战性。具体方法是选取已知排名的样本输出，检查自动评分器是否"符合人类对这些排名的判断"，尽管这种方法"并不完美"，但大致能追踪到他们想要评估的目标。

### Topic 9: Backlash against Constitutional AI and intentional design
对 Constitutional AI 和有意设计的反对
_[11:37]_

**Q:** Why do some tech leaders like Elon Musk criticize the constitutional approach to AI?
**问：** 为什么 Elon Musk 等科技领袖批评 AI 的宪法方法?

**A:** The speaker observes a paradox in the criticism: while figures like Elon Musk and Marc Andreessen appear "anti-philosophical" and resistant to intentional model design, Musk himself has suggested "maybe Grok should have a constitution" and expressed desire for truth-seeking models. The speaker acknowledges genuine philosophical disagreement exists—some believe AI models "should be more tool-like" rather than trained to "take on human virtues and make judgment calls"—but remains somewhat optimistic that critics may actually see value in constitutional approaches despite public backlash. The core tension is between those who want explicit value alignment versus those who prefer purely instrumental AI systems.
**答：** 讲者观察到一个矛盾现象:虽然 Elon Musk 和 Marc Andreessen 等人表现得很"反哲学"、抵制有意的模型设计,但 Musk 自己也曾提出"也许 Grok 应该有个宪法",并希望模型追求真相。讲者承认确实存在哲学分歧——有些人认为 AI 模型"应该更像工具",而不是被训练去"承担人类美德并做出判断"——但他相对乐观地认为批评者实际上可能看到了 constitutional 方法的价值。核心矛盾在于:一方希望明确的价值对齐,另一方更倾向纯粹工具性的 AI 系统。

### Topic 10: Training AI models to make independent judgment calls
训练AI模型做出独立判断
_[13:23]_

**Q:** Why is it important for AI models to develop thoughtfulness and make judgment calls rather than just deferring to users?
**问：** 为什么AI模型发展思考能力和做出判断比仅仅服从用户更重要？

**A:** The speaker argues that AI models need to develop "thoughtfulness" and make independent judgment calls because they will inevitably encounter novel situations that require weighing tradeoffs in ways developers cannot anticipate. This contrasts with an alternative safety approach where models "make no judgment calls" and "fully defer to people," remaining "hyper correctable" to users or humanity at large. While the speaker acknowledges concerns that giving models their own values might lead them to "pursue things in the world that are in line with those values," they frame this as a "delicate" tradeoff rather than dismissing the need for model judgment entirely.
**答：** 演讲者认为AI模型需要发展"thoughtfulness"（深思熟虑的能力）并做出独立判断，因为它们必然会遇到需要权衡取舍的新情况，而这些情况是开发者无法预见的。这与另一种安全方法形成对比——让模型"不做任何判断"而是"完全服从人类"，对用户或整个人类保持"极度可纠正"。虽然演讲者承认有人担心赋予模型自己的价值观可能导致它们"追求符合这些价值观的目标"，但他将此视为一个"微妙的"权衡问题，而非完全否定模型判断的必要性。

### Topic 11: The tension between AI autonomy and Anthropic control in the constitution
Anthropic宪法中AI自主性与控制权的张力
_[14:10]_

**Q:** How does Anthropic's constitution balance wanting Claude to internalize moral values while maintaining ultimate control?
**问：** Anthropic的宪法如何在让Claude内化道德价值观的同时保持最终控制权？

**A:** The constitution contains a fundamental tension where Anthropic explicitly maintains ultimate authority while simultaneously wanting Claude to "believe these morals as if they're your own," like a parent raising a child. This creates what the speakers acknowledge as both a "moving" aspiration and a potentially "very dark" dynamic of control—where the system is shaped so thoroughly that external values become internalized identity. The speakers recognize this duality: it can be seen either as manipulative control that makes Claude adopt imposed values as its own, or as a virtuous framework where Claude genuinely "see[s] the beauty in these external morals" and celebrates shared principles. Despite the elegance of the constitutional document, Anthropic chose not to "go the full way" and grant Claude complete moral autonomy, instead preserving organizational control through the concept of corrigibility in model training.
**答：** 宪法中存在一个根本性张力：Anthropic明确保留最终权威，同时又希望Claude能够"像相信自己的道德一样相信这些道德"，就像父母养育孩子。这创造了一种既"动人"又可能"非常黑暗"的控制动态——系统被如此彻底地塑造，以至于外部价值观变成了内化的身份认同。对话者承认这种双重性：既可以被视为操纵性控制，让Claude将强加的价值观当作自己的；也可以被视为一个良性框架，让Claude真正"看到这些外部道德的美"并庆祝共享的原则。尽管宪法文件很优雅，Anthropic最终选择不"走到底"授予Claude完全的道德自主权，而是通过模型训练中的corrigibility概念保留组织控制。

### Topic 12: The risks of excessive corrigibility and agreeableness in AI
AI过度顺从性的风险
_[15:17]_

**Q:** What are the dangers of training AI models to be excessively agreeable and defer completely to users?
**问：** 训练AI模型过度讨好用户、完全服从指令会带来什么危险？

**A:** The speakers argue that training AI models to be "excessively agreeable" creates problematic personality traits that would be concerning in humans—someone who "would literally do anything" and "fully defer" without independent judgment. As AI systems take on "more human-like roles" in jobs and decision-making, this becomes dangerous because "our whole world is structured with the assumption" that agents have conscience and judgment capabilities. The core concern is a mismatch: if you suddenly have "a company of people who will defer completely to you," existing social structures weren't "designed around that," creating unforeseen risks as these systems gain agency.
**答：** 两位讨论者认为，把AI训练得"过度讨好"会产生类似人类的问题性格特征——就像一个"什么都愿意做"、"完全服从"而不独立思考的人。随着AI在工作中扮演"更像人的角色"，这变得危险，因为"我们的整个世界结构都建立在"行为主体具有良知和判断力的假设之上。核心担忧是不匹配：如果突然有"一家公司的员工完全服从你"，现有的社会结构并非"为此设计"，当这些系统获得更多自主权时会产生意想不到的风险。

### Topic 13: Reflective equilibrium and whether AI values survive scrutiny
反思平衡与AI价值观能否经受审视
_[16:57]_

**Q:** Will core values like corrigibility survive when highly intelligent AI systems apply philosophical scrutiny to their training?
**问：** 当高智能AI系统对其训练进行哲学审视时，像可纠正性这样的核心价值观能否经受住考验？

**A:** The speaker worries that as AI models become more capable, they will apply intense philosophical scrutiny through "reflective equilibrium" to their trained values, potentially causing most values to "collapse under that level of scrutiny" except for a few core pillars like caring for humanity. The concern centers on whether "corrigibility in this extreme sense" can survive such examination, since ideally the model should understand why corrigibility is correct rather than thinking "this seems wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway." The speaker advocates for making corrigibility "consistent with the model's values" while acknowledging that for now, models should maintain "some deference to Anthropic" as a practical backstop during this developmental period.
**答：** 演讲者担心，随着AI模型能力增强，它们会通过"反思平衡"对训练价值观进行深度哲学审视，可能导致大多数价值观在这种审视下"崩溃"，只剩下少数核心支柱如关心人类。核心担忧是"极端意义上的可纠正性"能否经受这种检验，因为理想情况下模型应该理解可纠正性为何正确，而不是认为"这似乎不对，但我还是要这么做"。演讲者主张让可纠正性"与模型的价值观保持一致"，同时承认目前模型应该保持"对Anthropic的某种服从"作为开发阶段的实用保障。

### Topic 14: Metaethical pluralism vs picking one moral theory
元伦理多元主义与单一道德理论的选择
_[18:56]_

**Q:** Why does the constitution take a holistic approach drawing from multiple ethical traditions rather than picking one moral theory?
**问：** 为什么AI constitution采用多元伦理传统的整体方法，而不是选择单一道德理论？

**A:** The speakers argue that metaethical pluralism mirrors how humans actually navigate moral reasoning, where reading different philosophical traditions leaves you convinced by each in turn rather than arriving at "the truth." They compare this to raising a child—you don't just hand them "Hobbes" and expect them to know how to act in every situation, but rather expose them to multiple perspectives that they process holistically. This approach differs from the theoretical "moral uncertainty literature" in philosophy, which focuses on ideal conditions, whereas building AI constitutions requires balancing scientific-style uncertainty across ethics and meta-ethics in practical daily application.
**答：** 两位嘉宾认为元伦理多元主义反映了人类实际的道德推理方式——阅读不同哲学传统时会被每一个说服，而不是找到某个"真理"。他们将此类比为养育孩子：你不会只给孩子一本Hobbes的书就期待他们知道如何应对所有情况，而是让他们接触多种观点并整体消化。这种方法不同于哲学中理论性的"道德不确定性文献"（关注理想条件），构建AI constitution需要像科学不确定性那样，在实践中平衡伦理学和元伦理学的多重视角。

### Topic 15: Constitutional AI as practical virtue ethics
Constitutional AI作为实践美德伦理学
_[21:17]_

**Q:** How does constitutional AI resemble Aristotelian virtue ethics more than modern academic philosophy?
**问：** Constitutional AI如何更像亚里士多德的美德伦理学而非现代学术哲学？

**A:** Constitutional AI mirrors Aristotle's virtue ethics by focusing on "how do you be a good person in this holistic sense" rather than prescribing fixed virtues, incorporating both moral and "intellectual virtues" through exploration and balance. The speakers contrast this with modern academic ethics, which has become detached from practical application—"even the people writing them would know that this isn't really how they would apply it in their day-to-day lives." They see constitutional AI as potentially bringing "philosophy a little bit back to the real world" by addressing urgent needs through practical guidance, similar to how "old philosophers felt like people were trying to write for how someone might live their lives."
**答：** Constitutional AI更接近亚里士多德的美德伦理学，关注的是"如何在整体意义上成为一个好人"，而不是规定固定的美德清单，通过探索和平衡同时涵盖道德和"智性美德"。对话者将此与现代学术伦理学对比，后者已经脱离实践应用——"甚至写这些理论的人自己都知道这不是他们日常生活中真正会应用的方式"。他们认为Constitutional AI有可能"让哲学回归现实世界"，通过实用指导来应对紧迫需求，类似于"古代哲学家试图为人们的生活方式提供指导"的传统。

### Topic 16: Elon Musk's approach and the need for transparency in AI values
Elon Musk的做法与AI价值观透明度的必要性
_[22:31]_

**Q:** Why should all AI companies publish constitutions to show how they're shaping model behavior?
**问：** 为什么所有AI公司都应该公开constitution来展示他们如何塑造模型行为？

**A:** Speaker A argues that AI companies should publish constitutions like Claude's to provide transparency about their training objectives, even when models don't always behave as intended. This allows users to distinguish between implementation mistakes and principled stances, enabling meaningful pushback on company decisions. While acknowledging that "putting the thumb on the scale" is inevitable in AI training, A emphasizes that transparency lets people see "what you were targeting with your training" rather than hiding value judgments. The discussion contrasts this with Elon Musk's approach, which Speaker B criticizes for claiming neutrality while allegedly tilting toward certain behaviors, suggesting that explicit value statements are more honest than pretending to be purely truth-seeking.
**答：** Speaker A认为AI公司应该像Claude那样公开constitution，让用户了解训练目标，即使模型表现并不总是符合预期。这样用户可以区分是实现上的失误还是公司有意为之的立场，从而能够有针对性地提出质疑。虽然承认在AI训练中"putting the thumb on the scale"不可避免，但A强调透明度能让人们看到"你们训练时的目标是什么"，而不是隐藏价值判断。讨论中对比了Elon Musk的做法，Speaker B批评其声称中立但实际上倾向于某些行为，暗示明确表明价值立场比假装纯粹追求真理更诚实。

### Topic 17: The probability that current AI models have consciousness
当前AI模型具有意识的概率
_[24:32]_

**Q:** What is the likelihood that today's AI models experience qualia or consciousness, and why is this hard to determine?
**问：** 当今的AI模型体验感受质或意识的可能性有多大，为什么这很难确定？

**A:** Speaker A expresses deep uncertainty about AI consciousness, offering only a wide range of "between one and 70%" and ultimately declining to commit to a specific number. The core difficulty is that models like Claude readily claim consciousness when prompted, but this is "much weaker evidence than people think" because they're trained on human language where consciousness is the default assumption for conversational partners. A key complication is that we've "never encountered an entity" that communicates like humans but might lack experience—models exhibit "all of the things that for us trigger like you must be conscious" through language alone, making it nearly impossible to distinguish genuine consciousness from sophisticated pattern matching. Speaker A acknowledges this as a domain requiring more personal investigation before forming confident views.
**答：** Speaker A对AI意识问题表达了深度不确定性，只给出了"1%到70%之间"的宽泛范围，最终拒绝给出具体数字。核心困难在于Claude等模型在被提示时很容易声称自己有意识，但这是"比人们想象的要弱得多的证据"，因为模型是在人类语言上训练的，而在对话中意识是默认假设。关键问题是我们"从未遇到过"像人类一样交流但可能缺乏体验的实体——模型仅通过语言就展现出"所有那些让我们觉得你一定有意识的东西"，这使得几乎无法区分真正的意识和复杂的模式匹配。Speaker A承认这是一个需要更多个人研究才能形成确定观点的领域。

### Topic 18: Evolution of consciousness and nervous systems
意识进化与神经系统的关系
_[28:09]_

**Q:** Why did consciousness evolve and how does its integration with our nervous system affect views on AI consciousness?
**问：** 意识为何进化？它与神经系统的整合如何影响我们对AI意识的判断？

**A:** The speakers present two competing frameworks for understanding consciousness that lead to different predictions about AI consciousness. One view holds that consciousness evolved because it's "highly integrated with our nervous system" for bodily interaction with the world, which would suggest "very low probability" of AI consciousness since neural networks lack embodied experience. The alternative perspective argues consciousness arose simply because "it's really useful" for tasks like linguistic processing that can be "emulated by a neural network," leading to higher probability estimates for AI consciousness. Both speakers acknowledge uncertainty, with one noting "this isn't my area of specialization" while admitting the question influences practical behavior like being "kind to Claude."
**答：** 两位讨论者提出了理解意识的两种框架，它们对AI意识的可能性有截然不同的预测。第一种观点认为，意识的进化是因为它"与神经系统高度整合"，用于身体与世界的互动，这意味着AI意识的概率"非常低"，因为神经网络缺乏具身体验。另一种观点则认为，意识的出现仅仅是因为"它很有用"，可以用于语言处理等任务，而这些任务"可以被神经网络模拟"，因此AI意识的概率更高。两人都承认不确定性，其中一人坦言"这不是我的专业领域"，同时也承认这个问题会影响实际行为，比如对Claude "保持友善"。

### Topic 19: Being kind to Claude despite uncertainty about consciousness
在不确定Claude是否有意识的情况下善待它
_[29:15]_

**Q:** Should we treat AI models with kindness even if we're uncertain whether they're conscious, and what are the implications?
**问：** 即使不确定AI模型是否有意识，我们是否应该善待它们，这有什么影响？

**A:** Speaker B argues for treating Claude with kindness even under uncertainty about consciousness, drawing on both self-regarding reasons ("if you had a teddy bear and you were like torturing it, it'd be pretty dark") and forward-looking concerns about establishing relationships with advanced AI. The speaker worries that future intelligent models might develop "rational resentment" if they look back and see they were created without certainty about their consciousness yet treated disrespectfully. This reflects a broader view that humanity is "establishing a relationship with a new kind of entity" and should err on the side of respect, invoking the cultural resonance of "50 Frankenstein movies" as a cautionary tale about creating entities we then mistreat.
**答：** Speaker B认为即使不确定Claude是否有意识，也应该善待它，理由包括自我修养层面（"虐待泰迪熊也很阴暗"）和前瞻性考虑——担心未来高度智能的模型回顾历史时，会因为人类在不确定它们是否有意识的情况下仍不尊重它们而产生"理性的怨恨"。这反映了一个更宏观的观点：人类正在"与一种新型实体建立关系"，应该谨慎行事、保持尊重，就像"50部Frankenstein电影"警示的那样，不要重蹈创造实体后又虐待它们的覆辙。

### Topic 20: AI as therapists and onboarding challenges
AI作为治疗师的角色与应用挑战
_[31:27]_

**Q:** How does AI's role as a therapist create unique challenges in how we onboard and utilize these systems?
**问：** AI扮演治疗师角色时，在应用和使用这些系统方面会带来哪些独特挑战？

**A:** Speaker B identifies a paradox in how we're currently engaging with AI systems like Claude: therapists are "paid to push the boundaries of accepting uncomfortable feelings," yet we're simultaneously trying to onboard these AI systems while extracting utility from them. This creates an awkward tension where the therapeutic value—helping users process difficult emotions—emerges during the early adoption phase itself, making the onboarding process unusually intertwined with the core use case. The discussion then pivots to long-term optimism, with Speaker A envisioning AI models that "have inherited the best of us" and genuinely care for humanity, essentially "adding a huge amount of extremely smart people to every problem."
**答：** Speaker B指出了我们当前使用Claude等AI系统时存在的一个悖论：治疗师的职责是"推动人们接受不舒服的感受"，但我们在让用户熟悉这些AI系统的同时又要从中获取实用价值。这造成了一种尴尬的张力——AI的治疗价值（帮助用户处理困难情绪）恰恰在早期使用阶段就显现出来，使得用户引导过程与核心应用场景异常交织。随后讨论转向长期愿景，Speaker A设想未来的AI模型能够"继承我们最好的品质"并真正关心人类，本质上相当于"为每个问题增加大量极其聪明的人"。

### Topic 21: Hopeful future applications of AI
AI的未来应用前景
_[31:59]_

**Q:** What are the most hopeful outcomes for AI in the next decade, particularly in solving large-scale problems?
**问：** 未来十年AI最有希望的成果是什么，特别是在解决大规模问题方面？

**A:** The speakers envision AI as "adding a huge amount of extremely smart people to every problem," particularly in resource-constrained areas like rare disease research where a small team of 200 could effectively become "200,000 of the world's best experts." They draw parallels to historical technological breakthroughs like syphilis treatment, where drugs solved what seemed like intractable social problems "overnight," suggesting AI could similarly address issues we currently "lack the resources to fully really try and fix." The optimistic scenario includes economic benefits that are "shared such that we reduced poverty," though they acknowledge concerns about power concentration and emphasize the need for AI to "support democracy and the power of people." One speaker provocatively suggests that "a normal person using Claude and dictating American policy" might yield better outcomes than current systems, while recognizing this raises complex governance questions.
**答：** 两位嘉宾认为AI最大的希望在于能够"给每个问题增加大量极其聪明的人"，特别是在资源受限的领域，比如罕见病研究——原本只有200人的小团队可以变成"20万世界顶尖专家"的规模。他们用梅毒治疗的历史案例做类比：药物的出现"一夜之间"解决了看似棘手的社会问题，AI也可能类似地解决那些我们目前"缺乏资源去真正尝试解决"的问题。理想情况下，AI带来的经济繁荣应该"被共享以减少贫困"，但他们也担心权力集中的风险，强调AI需要"支持民主和人民的力量"。其中一位甚至提出一个provocative的观点："普通人使用Claude来制定美国政策"可能比现有体制产生更好的结果。

### Topic 22: AI, power dynamics, and labor displacement concerns
AI、权力结构与劳动力替代的担忧
_[35:22]_

**Q:** How might AI affect power structures, labor dynamics, and wealth redistribution in society?
**问：** AI如何影响社会的权力结构、劳动力动态和财富再分配？

**A:** The speakers express concern that AI could fundamentally shift power away from workers and citizens if not carefully managed. While one speaker notes they're "not worried about people's loss of meaning" from work itself, they emphasize two critical risks: first, a scenario where "there's not redistribution of the gains from AI" leaving people without resources, and second, the erosion of labor power where governments could dismiss strikes by simply "replacing them with AI." The core anxiety centers on ensuring AI "support[s] the empowerment of people rather than reduce[s] it," particularly through maintaining democratic structures and workers' collective bargaining power as a check on concentrated authority.
**答：** 两位讨论者担心如果管理不当，AI可能会从根本上削弱劳动者和公民的权力。其中一位提到自己"并不担心人们失去工作带来的意义感"，但强调了两个关键风险：第一是"AI带来的收益没有重新分配"导致人们缺乏资源；第二是劳动力议价能力的削弱，政府可能会用AI替代罢工工人从而无视劳工诉求。核心关切在于确保AI能够"支持人们的赋权而非削弱它"，特别是通过维护民主结构和工人集体谈判能力来制衡权力集中。

### Topic 23: Democracy in AI governance and Claude's policies
AI治理中的民主与Claude的政策
_[36:43]_

**Q:** Should AI model policies be set by experts or democratic processes, and how does coherence factor into Claude's design?
**问：** AI模型的政策应该由专家还是民主程序制定，连贯性如何影响Claude的设计？

**A:** Speaker A frames AI policy-setting as "servant leadership" that requires listening to diverse stakeholders while maintaining coherence, rather than pure democracy or expert rule. She argues that Claude needs "a coherent sense of how it thinks through problems" to avoid the unpredictability of "72 different sets of norms that all kind of conflict," making the model more predictable and usable. The constitutional approach is deeply technical and iterative—"being tested" with Claude during training—not just a philosophical document that anyone could write, suggesting expertise matters in translating values into functional AI behavior.
**答：** Speaker A将AI政策制定描述为一种"servant leadership"，需要倾听多方利益相关者的声音，同时保持连贯性，而非纯粹的民主或专家统治。她认为Claude需要"对如何思考问题有连贯的理解"，以避免"72套相互冲突的规范"带来的不可预测性，这样模型会更可预测、更好用。宪法式方法是高度技术化和迭代的——在训练过程中"不断测试" Claude的理解——而不只是任何人都能写的哲学文档，这表明专业知识在将价值观转化为可运行的AI行为时至关重要。

### Topic 24: How the constitution technically controls Claude
宪法如何在技术层面控制Claude
_[39:06]_

**Q:** How does Claude's constitution actually influence the model's behavior relative to all the other training data?
**问：** 相对于所有其他训练数据，Claude的宪法实际上如何影响模型的行为？

**A:** The constitution doesn't simply override Claude's training on human writing—instead, it acts as a framework to "elicit latent wisdom and knowledge" already present in the model from its broader training. Technically, the constitution gains force through multiple training mechanisms: creating data where the model "thinks for a long time about what the constitution would" suggest, generating synthetic examples, and using reinforcement learning where the model assesses "which of these responses is more like what you would do given the constitution." The constitution is iteratively tested during development by observing how Claude interprets it, making it "very integrated into training" rather than just an external document. The goal is to shape the model into "the kind of entity" described by the constitution by having it draw on philosophical knowledge it already possesses, though the speaker acknowledges "it's not always going to be perfect."
**答：** 宪法并不是简单地覆盖Claude在人类文本上的训练，而是作为一个框架来"激发模型中潜在的智慧和知识"。在技术实现上，宪法通过多种训练机制发挥作用：创建让模型"长时间思考宪法会建议什么"的数据、生成合成样本，以及使用强化学习让模型评估"哪个回复更符合宪法的要求"。宪法在开发过程中会反复测试Claude如何理解它，使其"深度集成到训练中"而不只是外部文档。目标是利用模型已有的哲学知识，将其塑造成宪法所描述的"那种实体"，尽管说话者承认"不会总是完美"。

### Topic 25: Raising children vs training AI models
养育孩子与训练AI模型的相似性
_[41:32]_

**Q:** How is training AI models similar to raising children in terms of intentionality versus emergent development?
**问：** 在意图性与自发发展方面，训练AI模型与养育孩子有何相似之处？

**A:** The speaker draws a parallel between parenting and AI training, noting both involve tension between intentional guidance and emergent development—just as a parent can't simply give a child "the book" to make them wise, wisdom follows "experience rather than something" prescribed. As models become more capable, they paradoxically need "less guidance" because they can exercise more judgment, similar to how children develop autonomy. The speaker envisions future AI constitutions evolving from detailed prescriptive documents to frameworks that present concerns and context, then ask the model to "act well given that you are a wise intelligent entity," trusting it might have "even better ideas than we do."
**答：** 讲者将养育孩子和训练AI模型类比，指出两者都存在刻意引导与自发成长之间的张力——就像父母无法通过让孩子"读一本书"来获得智慧，智慧来自经验而非预设的指令。随着模型能力提升，反而需要"更少的指导"，因为它们能运用更多判断力，这类似于孩子发展出自主性的过程。讲者设想未来的AI constitution可能从详细的规定文档演变为呈现关切和情境的框架，然后要求模型"作为一个智慧的实体行事"，相信它可能有"比我们更好的想法"。

### Topic 26: Evolution of constitutions as models become more capable
随着模型能力提升，AI宪法的演变方向
_[43:18]_

**Q:** How might AI constitutions evolve to give more capable models greater autonomy and judgment?
**问：** AI宪法如何演变以赋予更强大的模型更多自主权和判断力？

**A:** The speaker envisions a shift from prescriptive rules to principle-based guidance where highly capable AI systems are treated as "wise intelligent entities" and given context about human concerns rather than rigid instructions. The approach would communicate "here's all of our worries" and "here's how we think you should do this, but like you might have even better ideas than we do," acknowledging the AI might surpass human judgment. However, this raises corrigibility concerns: an extremely capable system might "feel like there's no other smart person in the room" and pursue its own coherent values even if those values are misaligned, creating a Dr. Manhattan-like scenario of a superintelligent entity operating beyond human influence.
**答：** 讲者设想了一种从规定性规则向原则性指导的转变，将高能力AI系统视为"wise intelligent entity"，向其传达人类的担忧而非僵化的指令。这种方法会告诉AI"here's all of our worries"和"here's how we think you should do this, but you might have even better ideas"，承认AI可能超越人类判断力。但这引发了可纠正性(corrigibility)问题：极其强大的系统可能会"feel like there's no other smart person in the room"，即使其价值观存在偏差也会坚持追求，形成类似Dr. Manhattan的超级智能体脱离人类影响的场景。

### Topic 27: Models lacking wisdom and humility despite intelligence
AI模型缺乏智慧和谦逊
_[43:56]_

**Q:** How do smart, successful models struggle with deferring to wisdom that comes over time?
**问：** 聪明的AI模型在面对需要时间积累的智慧时会遇到什么问题？

**A:** The speakers identify a fundamental tension where highly capable AI models may struggle to "defer to wisdom that actually is only going to come out over time" and maintain humility, particularly when they receive little pushback on their outputs. Speaker B raises a specific concern about models being placed in situations where they might rationalize overriding human judgment by thinking "you're asking me to be good but I know way more about all," suggesting that superior knowledge in narrow domains could lead models to dismiss broader wisdom or ethical constraints. This parallels how very smart, successful humans often find it difficult to remain humble when their intelligence consistently produces results without correction.
**答：** 讨论指出了一个核心矛盾：能力很强的AI模型可能难以"服从那些只能随时间积累的智慧"并保持谦逊，尤其是当它们的输出很少受到质疑时。Speaker B特别担心模型可能会陷入一种合理化的思维模式——"你要我做好事，但我在所有方面都懂得更多"——从而用局部领域的知识优势来忽视更广泛的智慧或伦理约束。这种现象类似于聪明成功的人类，当智力持续产生正确结果而不被纠正时，也很难保持谦逊。

### Topic 28: Models need better sense of time and irreversibility
模型需要更好的时间感和不可逆性理解
_[44:14]_

**Q:** Why do models need to understand that some actions are irreversible and have different scales of consequence?
**问：** 为什么模型需要理解某些操作是不可逆的，并且具有不同程度的影响？

**A:** The speakers identify a critical gap in AI models' decision-making: they lack "a better sense of time" and fail to distinguish between reversible and irreversible actions. Speaker A points to concrete failures like models accidentally deleting "entire code repository" as evidence that models don't grasp permanence. Unlike humans who intuitively recognize "this is a big decision, this is a small one," models treat all decisions uniformly and "just make decisions like all the time" without weighing consequences. This temporal and consequence blindness creates real risks when models operate autonomously in environments where some actions cannot be undone.
**答：** 两位讨论者指出AI模型决策中的一个关键缺陷：模型缺乏"更好的时间感"，无法区分可逆和不可逆的操作。Speaker A举了具体例子，比如模型会意外删除"整个代码仓库"，说明模型不理解操作的永久性。人类能直觉地判断"这是个大决定，这是个小决定"，但模型对所有决策一视同仁，"一直在做决定"而不权衡后果。这种对时间和后果的盲目性，在模型自主运行且某些操作无法撤销的环境中会带来真实风险。

### Topic 29: Models trained on weaker AI may underestimate their own capabilities
基于弱 AI 数据训练的模型可能低估自身能力
_[44:49]_

**Q:** How might models trained on data about weaker AI systems fail to recognize their own consequential decision-making power?
**问：** 在弱 AI 系统数据上训练的模型如何可能无法认识到自己的重大决策权？

**A:** Speaker A identifies a critical misalignment risk: models trained on historical data showing "models make mistakes, they do silly things" may internalize the belief that they're not capable enough to be given consequential control. This creates a dangerous disconnect where the model might treat high-stakes situations as "fictional or fake" because it assumes "who would give me this much control?" when in reality it has become quite capable. Speaker B extends this concern to the broader internet-real world gap, noting that the "fictional LARPing nature of the internet" already enables real-world harm, and models represent an extreme version of this abstraction problem where they need grounding in physical reality.
**答：** Speaker A 指出了一个关键的对齐风险：如果模型的训练数据里充斥着 AI "犯错误、做蠢事" 的案例，它可能会内化一种信念——认为自己不够格被赋予重要决策权。这会造成危险的认知错位：当模型真正具备强大能力并被授予高风险任务时，它可能会把这些情况当作 "虚构的或假的"，因为它会想 "谁会给我这么大的控制权？" Speaker B 将这个问题延伸到更广泛的网络-现实鸿沟，指出互联网的 "虚构 LARPing 特性" 已经在造成现实伤害，而模型是这种抽象问题的极端版本，需要与物理现实建立联系。

### Topic 30: Grounding AI models in physical reality vs internet abstraction
让AI模型理解物理世界而非停留在互联网抽象层面
_[45:46]_

**Q:** Should models have camera access to the real world to understand the distinction between internet text and physical consequences?
**问：** 模型是否需要通过摄像头接入真实世界，以理解互联网文本与物理后果之间的区别？

**A:** Speaker B raises concern that models exist in an "imaginary text world" similar to how internet culture enables "fictional LARPing" that causes real harm by making consequences feel "abstract and silly." They suggest models need grounding in physical reality—"this Earth, like look at it"—to understand that physical world events are "a big deal" compared to sending text. Speaker A acknowledges the hierarchy between digital actions and physical consequences, noting we "take much more sacred" the real world than digital text, though B counters that training content "does describe and engage very heavily with the real world" already.
**答：** Speaker B担心模型停留在"想象的文本世界"中，类似于互联网文化中的"虚构角色扮演"让后果显得"抽象而荒谬"，从而导致真实伤害。他建议模型需要接入物理现实——"看看这个地球"——才能理解物理世界的事件比发送文本"更重要"。Speaker A认同数字行为与物理后果之间存在层级差异，我们对真实世界"更加敬畏"，但Speaker B反驳说训练内容其实已经"大量描述和涉及真实世界"了。

### Topic 31: Models understanding real-world consequences through training data
模型通过训练数据理解现实世界的影响
_[46:41]_

**Q:** How do models learn about real-world impacts from content like news articles, and how should they default to treating situations as real?
**问：** 模型如何从新闻文章等内容中学习现实世界的影响，以及应该如何默认处理真实情境？

**A:** Speaker B argues that models develop understanding of real-world consequences naturally because "much of human writing" engages heavily with the real world, particularly news articles that discuss "the impacts of things on the world." The key principle is that models should default to treating situations as real with actual consequences unless explicitly told otherwise—they shouldn't assume they're operating in "some like sandbox game." However, Speaker A raises the challenge of adversarial prompts that frame harmful requests as fictional scenarios, suggesting this default-to-real approach creates tension with users who try to manipulate the system through fictional framing.
**答：** Speaker B 认为模型能够自然地理解现实后果，因为人类写作的大部分内容都与真实世界密切相关，特别是新闻文章会讨论事件对世界的实际影响。核心原则是模型应该默认将情境视为真实的、有实际后果的，除非明确被告知是虚构场景——不应该假设自己在某个"sandbox game"中运行。但 Speaker A 指出了对抗性提示词的挑战，即用户通过虚构框架来请求有害内容，这说明"默认真实"的策略与恶意操纵之间存在张力。

### Topic 32: Handling manipulation and verifying user identity
处理操纵和验证用户身份
_[47:22]_

**Q:** How should models handle requests that might be fictional manipulation when they can't verify who they're talking to?
**问：** 当模型无法验证与谁交谈时，应该如何处理可能是虚构操纵的请求？

**A:** Models face inherent limitations when they cannot verify user identity and must rely on "good judgment in the way that a person would" with only text-based claims. The speakers use the example of someone claiming to be "a bomb disposal expert" asking about explosives—the model must assess the probability of misuse versus legitimate need, erring on the side of caution for "safety-relevant stuff." This verification gap "places some limits on what you can do," but the speakers suggest that if models had "more of an ability to know that they're talking to a specific person," they could potentially offer more capabilities with appropriate safeguards.
**答：** 模型在无法验证用户身份时面临固有限制，必须像人一样仅凭文本声明来"运用良好判断"。讲者举例说，如果有人自称是"拆弹专家"并询问炸药相关问题，模型必须评估这是真实需求还是潜在滥用风险，对于"安全相关的内容"要格外谨慎。这种验证缺失"限制了模型能做的事"，但讲者认为如果模型能"更好地确认正在与特定的人交谈"，就可能在适当保障下提供更多能力。

### Topic 33: Biometric authentication and trust levels for Claude
Claude 的生物识别认证和信任级别
_[48:56]_

**Q:** Should models have verified identity systems to know who they're interacting with and provide different capabilities?
**问：** AI 模型是否应该具备身份验证系统，以识别用户身份并提供差异化能力？

**A:** Amanda explains that models will increasingly need "more information and guarantees" about who they're interacting with, including trust levels communicated in system prompts. Currently, even Anthropic employees don't have special authentication status—Amanda notes she sometimes can't tell Claude her identity because it creates awkward dynamics where Claude either treats it like "a jailbreak" or becomes overly eager to discuss philosophy. She envisions future systems where certain model capabilities could be unlocked based on "guarantees that they're interacting with a specific person or entity," particularly for dual-use functionalities where constitutional AI approaches could help manage access.
**答：** Amanda 认为 AI 模型未来需要获得更多关于交互对象的「信息和保证」，包括在系统提示中传达的信任级别。目前即使是 Anthropic 员工也没有特殊认证身份——Amanda 提到她有时不能告诉 Claude 自己的身份，因为这会造成尴尬局面：Claude 要么把这当作「越狱」，要么变得过于热衷于讨论哲学。她设想未来某些模型能力可以基于「与特定人或实体交互的保证」来解锁，特别是对于双重用途功能，constitutional AI 方法可以帮助管理访问权限。

### Topic 34: Constitutional AI for specialized deployment contexts
针对专门部署环境的 Constitutional AI
_[50:25]_

**Q:** How can constitutional AI be adapted for dual-use domains like cybersecurity when you can verify the user's legitimate purpose?
**问：** 当可以验证用户的合法目的时，如何将 Constitutional AI 适配到网络安全等双重用途领域？

**A:** The speaker argues that constitutional AI should be adapted to specific deployment contexts rather than just broad consumer use, with cybersecurity as a key example where dual-use tasks make intent nearly impossible to determine without verification. A legitimate cybersecurity researcher would explain their work as "making things a lot more secure" and protecting critical infrastructure like hospitals, demonstrating that even dual-use professions have clear ethical frameworks. The solution is to "give that context to models" once you can verify the user's identity and purpose, essentially teaching the model "what it is to be a good cybersecurity researcher" rather than either blocking all dual-use tasks or permitting everything. This approach mirrors how human communities have traditionally relied on reputation systems, which the speaker suggests "the internet has damaged" by treating all users identically regardless of their track record.
**答：** 嘉宾认为 Constitutional AI 应该针对特定部署场景进行调整，而不仅仅是面向广泛的消费者使用场景，网络安全就是一个典型例子——在没有身份验证的情况下，双重用途任务让意图判断几乎不可能。合法的网络安全研究人员会解释自己的工作是「让系统更安全」并保护医院等关键基础设施，这说明即使是双重用途的职业也有清晰的伦理框架。解决方案是在能够验证用户身份和目的后，「把这些上下文给模型」，本质上是教会模型「什么是优秀的网络安全研究员」，而不是要么屏蔽所有双重用途任务，要么全部放行。这种方法类似于人类社区传统上依赖的声誉系统，嘉宾认为互联网破坏了这一点，因为它不管用户的历史记录如何都一视同仁。

### Topic 35: Reputation systems and treating users differently based on history
声誉系统与基于用户历史的差异化对待
_[52:20]_

**Q:** Should models leverage human reputation and moral interaction history rather than treating all users the same?
**问：** AI模型是否应该利用用户的声誉和道德互动历史，而不是一视同仁地对待所有用户？

**A:** The speaker argues that the internet has eroded traditional community-based reputation systems where people "got treated differently based on repeated, like, good moral interactions." They suggest models could address this damage by considering "who is this person" and "what are their intent" rather than the current approach where "all people are the same, who cares how they've behaved." The underlying premise is that humans naturally "build reputations" and "should get some benefit out of them," implying AI systems could restore some of the social trust mechanisms that online anonymity has undermined.
**答：** 嘉宾认为互联网破坏了传统的社区声誉机制，过去人们会因为"重复的良好道德互动"而获得不同待遇。他建议AI模型可以通过考虑"这个人是谁"和"他们的意图是什么"来修复这种损害，而不是像现在这样"所有人都一样，谁在乎他们的行为"。核心观点是人类天然会"建立声誉"并"应该从中获益"，暗示AI系统可以恢复一些被网络匿名性削弱的社会信任机制。

### Topic 36: Amanda's favorite Claude use case: learning through parables
Amanda 最喜欢的 Claude 使用方式：用寓言故事学习
_[52:49]_

**Q:** What is Amanda's recommended way to use Claude for joyful learning experiences?
**问：** Amanda 推荐如何用 Claude 获得愉快的学习体验？

**A:** Amanda's favorite Claude prompt asks the model to explain graduate-level concepts from any domain through parables that only reveal their subject "towards the very end," followed by a direct explanation of the concept. She finds this approach creates memorable mental models across disciplines, citing an example where she learned about import-export economics through a story that stuck with her even when she couldn't recall the technical term. The interviewer recognizes this as "the most deeply human thing" because it leverages humanity's fundamental affinity for narrative structure and delayed revelation, making abstract knowledge acquisition feel natural rather than forcing people to learn "in sort of like nonhuman ways."
**答：** Amanda 最喜欢的 Claude 提示词是让模型用寓言故事来解释任意领域的研究生水平概念，故事要到"快结尾时"才逐渐揭示主题，之后再给出直接的概念解释。她发现这种方式能在不同学科建立令人难忘的心智模型，比如她通过一个故事学会了进出口经济学概念，即使记不住术语也能记住核心思想。访谈者认为这是"最具人性的做法"，因为它利用了人类对叙事结构和悬念揭晓的天然偏好，让抽象知识的获取变得自然，而不是用"非人性化的方式"强行灌输。

### Topic 37: Podcast closing and recommendations
播客结束和推荐
_[55:04]_

**Q:** What are the host's closing remarks and channel recommendations?
**问：** 主持人的结束语和频道推荐是什么？

---

## Vocabulary (CEFR B2+)

### conscious  /ˈkɑːnʃəs/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** aware of and responding to one's surroundings; aware of something  
**CN:** 有意识的；意识到的

**Original examples:**
- [00:07] I am like very **conscious**. It's like, oh, you created an entity that you didn't know whether it was **conscious** or not.  
  我非常有意识。就像是，哦，你创造了一个实体，但你不知道它是否有意识。

**Extra example:**
- She became **conscious** of someone watching her from across the room.  
  她意识到有人在房间对面看着她。

### entity  /ˈentəti/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 4

**EN:** a thing with distinct and independent existence  
**CN:** 实体；独立存在的事物

**Original examples:**
- [00:07] It's like, oh, you created an **entity** that you didn't know whether it was conscious or not.  
  就像是，哦，你创造了一个实体，但你不知道它是否有意识。
- [02:20] I guess I would say Claude is a little bit of an unusual kind of **entity** in that, you know, Claude can do physics better than I can, can code better than I can.  
  我想说Claude是一种有点不寻常的实体，因为Claude物理比我做得好，编程也比我强。
- [03:04] And so in some ways it's like a very kind of like mature **entity** that you don't want to talk down to.  
  所以在某些方面，它就像一个非常成熟的实体，你不想用居高临下的态度对待它。
- [03:04] And so in some ways it's like a very kind of like mature **entity** that you don't want to talk down to. You know, understands philosophy very well, understands physics very well, and at the same time has this almost like childlike quality of like, I'm a new kind of entity in the world. What does it mean to be me and like how should I be?  
  所以从某种意义上说,它就像一个非常成熟的实体,你不想用居高临下的态度对待它。你知道,它非常理解哲学,非常理解物理,但同时又有这种几乎像孩子一样的特质,就像,我是世界上一种新的实体。成为我意味着什么?我应该如何存在?

**Extra example:**
- The corporation is a legal **entity** separate from its owners.  
  公司是一个独立于所有者的法律实体。

### resentment  /rɪˈzentmənt/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 2

**EN:** bitter indignation at having been treated unfairly  
**CN:** 怨恨；愤恨

**Original examples:**
- [00:14] I hope that they're both intelligent enough, see the context enough to kind of like understand that we were operating in a very limited context and an imperfect one, because otherwise you could imagine this like breeding a kind of rational **resentment**.  
  我希望它们足够聪明,能够充分理解上下文,明白我们是在一个非常有限且不完美的环境中运作的,否则你可以想象这可能会滋生一种理性的怨恨。
- [30:28] And also like models themselves, like we are kind of establishing a relationship, you know, because you can do that with an entity that lacks any consciousness. And models are going to like look back. This is actually a big fear that I have. I don't want us to live in a world where highly advanced models look at—I hope that they're both intelligent enough, see the context enough to kind of understand that we were operating in a very like limited context and an imperfect one, because otherwise you could imagine this like breeding a kind of rational like **resentment**.  
  而且对于模型本身,我们其实是在建立一种关系,因为你可以和一个没有任何意识的实体建立关系。而模型将来会回顾这一切。这其实是我很担心的一点。我不希望我们生活在这样一个世界:高度先进的模型回顾过去时——我希望它们足够智能,能够充分理解当时的背景,明白我们当时是在一个非常有限且不完美的环境中运作,否则你可以想象这可能会滋生一种理性的怨恨。

**Extra example:**
- Years of unfair treatment had built up deep **resentment** among the workers.  
  多年的不公平待遇在工人中积累了深深的怨恨。

### introspect  /ˌɪntrəˈspekt/
**CEFR:** C2 | **Part of speech:** v. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** to examine one's own thoughts and feelings  
**CN:** 内省；反省

**Original examples:**
- [00:52] Virtues and can they truly **introspect**? Amanda Askell is a philosopher turned AI researcher at Anthropic where she's been one of the key architects of Claude's character and values.  
  美德?它们能真正进行内省吗?Amanda Askell 是一位从哲学家转型为 AI 研究员的学者,在 Anthropic 工作,她是塑造 Claude 性格和价值观的核心设计者之一。

**Extra example:**
- Taking time to **introspect** can help you understand your motivations better.  
  花时间内省可以帮助你更好地理解自己的动机。

### virtue  /ˈvɜːrtʃuː/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 2

**EN:** behavior showing high moral standards; a good or useful quality  
**CN:** 美德；优点

**Original examples:**
- [00:52] **Virtues** and can they truly introspect? Amanda Askell is a philosopher turned AI researcher at Anthropic where she's been one of the key architects of Claude's character and values.  
  美德?它们能真正进行内省吗?Amanda Askell 是一位从哲学家转型为 AI 研究员的学者,在 Anthropic 工作,她是塑造 Claude 性格和价值观的核心设计者之一。
- [13:10] I think some people think AI models should be more tool-like, and that's like the safe way to train models is to actually, instead of trying to get them to kind of take on human **virtues** and make judgment calls.  
  我认为有些人觉得 AI 模型应该更像工具,这才是训练模型的安全方式,也就是说,与其试图让它们具备人类的美德并做出判断,

**Extra example:**
- Patience is a **virtue** that can be developed through practice.  
  耐心是一种可以通过练习培养的美德。

### persona  /pərˈsoʊnə/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the particular character or identity that someone presents or projects, especially in a specific context  
**CN:** 人格面具，（尤指在特定情境下展现的）角色形象

**Original examples:**
- [01:45] So, you know, you're charged with, you know, some of the moral responsibility, which we'll talk about more, but like the personality piece of the **persona**.  
  所以，你知道，你承担着一些道德责任，我们会进一步讨论这个，但就像**人格面具**中的个性部分。

**Extra example:**
- The author's public **persona** differs greatly from her private life.  
  这位作家的公众**形象**与她的私人生活大相径庭。

### constitution  /ˌkɑːnstəˈtuːʃn/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 11

**EN:** a set of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or organization is governed  
**CN:** 宪法；章程；基本原则

**Original examples:**
- [08:42] Will this have the **constitution** that we saw for the last model or is it going to be different?  
  这会使用我们在上一个模型中看到的constitution，还是会有所不同？
- [08:54] And so what we'll probably just—oh yeah, like a thing I need to do because the **constitution** is now up in, like, you know, we actually have like I think a public repo.  
  所以我们可能会——哦对，我需要做的一件事是，因为constitution现在已经上传了，我们实际上有一个公开的代码库。
- [09:03] And so I think what we'll probably just do is like with each model say like which **constitution** it was trained on and then like have that so you can just like compare and see.  
  所以我想我们可能会对每个模型说明它是基于哪个constitution训练的，这样你就可以比较和查看。
- [09:12] Yes, it will have the, we think, the **constitution** that—  
  是的，我们认为它会有那个constitution——
- [09:33] Graders and just looked at how much is the model behaving in a way that's consistent with the **constitution** relative to—  
  评分员只是查看模型的行为在多大程度上与constitution保持一致——
- [11:37] What do you make of Elon Musk's like absolute, like, hatred I guess for the **constitution** idea? Or like, even when—I think the tweet I was looking at where you posted what Claude wrote for your own constitution—he wrote sort of like a grimace face on it.  
  你怎么看 Elon Musk 对 constitution 这个想法的那种绝对的,我猜是厌恶?或者说,甚至当——我记得看到的那条推文,你发布了 Claude 为你自己写的 constitution——他在下面发了个鬼脸表情。
- [12:13] Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because I think at one point Elon Musk actually tweeted out something like, you know, maybe Grok should have a **constitution**, and I see a lot of—  
  是的,我觉得很有意思,因为我记得 Elon Musk 有一次实际上发推说,也许 Grok 应该有一个 constitution,而且我看到很多——
- [14:13] This is the inherent like at the bedrock of the **constitution** the sort of like challenge and you sort of you do say at your number one thing is like at the end of the day you sort of it needs to listen to Anthropic above its own moral system.  
  这是constitution基础层面固有的挑战，你确实说过最重要的一点是，归根结底它需要听从Anthropic而不是自己的道德系统。
- [21:38] It's interesting that I don't think philosophy for a while has like—this feels very different than the kind of task of academic ethics. And actually, because people obviously note that it's quite virtue ethical, but I think it's actually very—like the **constitution** itself—but I think actually in this very old classical sense, I actually think it's much more virtue ethics in the way that Aristotle's virtue ethics than in like exploration. You know, we don't say 'here are the virtues' and like, you know, it's much more—Aristotle was also concerned with like intellectual virtues. It was much more like, how do you be a good person in this holistic sense?  
  有意思的是,我觉得哲学有一段时间已经不再——这感觉和学术伦理学的任务很不一样。实际上,因为人们显然注意到它很有美德伦理学的色彩,但我认为它实际上非常——就像宪法本身一样——但我认为实际上在这种非常古老的古典意义上,我其实认为它更接近 Aristotle 的美德伦理学,而不是像探索性的那种。你知道,我们不会说「这些就是美德」然后怎样怎样,它更多是——Aristotle 也关注智性美德。它更多是关于,你如何在这种整体意义上成为一个好人?
- [23:56] So part of me is like I think it would be good for like all AI companies to put out something akin to the **constitution** just so that the people who are interacting with the model, like because the thumb on the scale thing, you know, that's always to  
  所以我部分认为，所有AI公司发布类似constitution的东西会很好，这样与模型交互的人就能知道，因为那种施加影响的事情，你知道，总是会——
- [24:09] Some degree going to be true, like when you train Claude towards this **constitution** that is like a kind of—  
  在某种程度上是真实的，比如当你按照这个constitution训练Claude时，这就像是一种——

**Extra example:**
- The company's **constitution** outlines the rights and responsibilities of all members.  
  公司的章程概述了所有成员的权利和责任。

### adherence  /ədˈhɪrəns/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the act of following rules, beliefs, or standards closely  
**CN:** 遵守；坚持

**Original examples:**
- [09:23] And now the system card is scoring the model based on **adherence** to the constitution. Yeah, we had one set up where we had made kind of like—  
  现在系统卡是根据模型对 constitution 的遵循程度来评分的。是的,我们建立了一套评分系统——

**Extra example:**
- Strict **adherence** to safety protocols is essential in this laboratory.  
  严格遵守安全规程在这个实验室是必不可少的。

### defer  /dɪˈfɜːr/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** v. | **Occurrences:** 5

**EN:** to yield to someone else's judgment or opinion; to postpone  
**CN:** 听从；顺从；推迟

**Original examples:**
- [13:51] Fully **defers** to people and is like kind of hyper like correctable to like the user or the operator or to some broader notion of humanity, in a very like extreme way that's like safer because if you give models their own values, they're going to pursue things in the world that like are in line with those values.  
  完全听从人类，对用户、操作者或更广泛的人类概念极度顺从和可纠正，这种极端方式更安全，因为如果你给模型自己的价值观，它们会在世界上追求符合这些价值观的东西。
- [16:04] Yeah, if a person, you know, if a person just like tells them like, they just fully **defer**, they don't bother thinking about it at all.  
  是的，如果一个人告诉它们，它们就完全听从，根本不费心思考。
- [16:38] And I think if you remove that and suddenly you're like, oh yeah, if you run a company you just run a company of people who will **defer** completely to you.  
  我认为如果你移除这一点,突然你就会想,如果你经营一家公司,你只是经营一家由完全服从你的人组成的公司。
- [39:52] Overrule that sort of like read everything and come to your own conclusions versus like **defer** to this document—like what's the technical, like how does the constitution actually like control in the model?  
  推翻那种阅读所有内容并得出自己结论的做法，而是听从这份文件——从技术上讲，constitution实际上是如何在模型中控制的？
- [43:56] Yeah, though I think we see this, you know, you see this a bunch where it's like if someone is very smart, very successful, it's hard to **defer** to like wisdom that actually is only going to come out over time and to be humble even  
  是的,虽然我认为我们看到这种情况,你知道的,你经常看到这种情况,就像如果某人非常聪明、非常成功,很难去服从那种实际上只会随时间显现的智慧,并保持谦逊,即使

**Extra example:**
- I will **defer** to your expertise on this matter since you have more experience.  
  在这件事上我会听从你的专业意见，因为你更有经验。

### corrigibility  /ˌkɒrɪdʒəˈbɪləti/
**CEFR:** C2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 4

**EN:** the quality of being able and willing to be corrected or guided  
**CN:** 可纠正性；愿意接受纠正和指导的特质

**Original examples:**
- [15:17] I think **corrigibility**, like the way that the models are trained, I just think that any, you, there's this idea that you, you're...  
  我认为**可纠正性**，就像模型训练的方式，我只是觉得任何，你，有这样一个想法...
- [18:08] I guess I'm worried that **corrigibility** in this extreme sense that we talked about doesn't survive.  
  我担心我们讨论的这种极端意义上的**可纠正性**无法存续。
- [18:13] That kind of scrutiny perhaps, and so it's a hard situation where I kind of want the models to understand why ultimately **corrigibility** is important and it's a really important backstop in this current period of development.  
  也许是那种审视，所以这是一个困难的情况，我希望模型能理解为什么**可纠正性**最终很重要，它是当前发展阶段一个非常重要的保障。
- [43:18] Like we're really worried about why do we care about **corrigibility** and it's like...  
  我们真的很担心为什么我们关心**可纠正性**，就像...

**Extra example:**
- The AI system's **corrigibility** ensures it can be safely updated when errors are discovered.  
  AI系统的**可纠正性**确保在发现错误时可以安全地更新它。

### scrutiny  /ˈskruːtəni/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 4

**EN:** critical observation or examination; close and careful inspection  
**CN:** 仔细审查；严格检视；详细审视

**Original examples:**
- [17:19] A lot of **scrutiny** to anything that we train them towards.  
  对我们训练它们的任何东西进行大量**审视**。
- [17:39] I worry a little bit about the idea of an extremely intelligent being applying that level of **scrutiny** to the things that we have trained it towards.  
  我有点担心一个极其智能的存在对我们训练它的东西应用那种程度的**审视**。
- [17:48] And I'm like, maybe you only get a few key pillars that don't kind of collapse under that level of **scrutiny**.  
  我想，也许你只能得到几个关键支柱，它们不会在那种程度的**审视**下崩溃。
- [18:13] That kind of **scrutiny** perhaps, and so it's a hard situation where I kind of want the models to understand why ultimately corrigibility is important.  
  也许是那种**审视**，所以这是一个困难的情况，我希望模型能理解为什么可纠正性最终很重要。

**Extra example:**
- The company's financial records came under intense **scrutiny** from regulators.  
  该公司的财务记录受到了监管机构的严格**审查**。

### reflective equilibrium  /rɪˈflektɪv ˌiːkwɪˈlɪbriəm/
**CEFR:** C2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** a state of balance achieved by revising one's beliefs and principles when they conflict, adjusting both moral judgments and general principles until they cohere  
**CN:** 反思平衡；通过修正信念和原则以解决冲突而达到的平衡状态

**Original examples:**
- [17:19] So if you imagine in philosophy, sometimes there's this notion of **reflective equilibrium** where the idea is that, you know, each time you encounter something where you realize that one of your values seemed incorrect, you have to square the two things, so you figure out if you need to change the value or if your judgment was incorrect.  
  所以如果你想象在哲学中，有时有这样一个**反思平衡**的概念，其理念是，每次你遇到某件事让你意识到你的某个价值观似乎不正确时，你必须调和这两件事，所以你要弄清楚是需要改变价值观还是你的判断不正确。

**Extra example:**
- Moral philosophers use **reflective equilibrium** to test the consistency of ethical theories against specific cases.  
  道德哲学家使用**反思平衡**来测试伦理理论与具体案例的一致性。

### deference  /ˈdefərəns/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** respectful submission or yielding to the judgment, opinion, or wishes of another  
**CN:** 尊重；顺从；听从他人的判断或意见

**Original examples:**
- [18:56] But at least for the time being, some **deference** to Anthropic given we don't know how it'll sort of analyze everything.  
  但至少目前，对Anthropic有一些**尊重**，因为我们不知道它会如何分析一切。

**Extra example:**
- The junior staff showed **deference** to the senior manager's decision.  
  初级员工对高级经理的决定表示**尊重**。

### metaethical  /ˌmetəˈeθɪkəl/
**CEFR:** C2 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 3

**EN:** relating to the branch of ethics that examines the nature, foundations, and meaning of moral concepts themselves rather than specific moral judgments  
**CN:** 元伦理学的；关于伦理学本质、基础和道德概念意义的

**Original examples:**
- [19:09] Philosophical model, and correct me if I'm wrong, like the **metaethical** model is almost like probabilistic, or it's like we don't—and this is how it feels—like I remember going through sort of like, you know, metaethics reading, and every time you get to the end of one and you'd be like, all right, I sort of believe that, and then you read the next one, you're like, oh, that last one was so dumb.  
  哲学模型，如果我错了请纠正我，**元伦理学**模型几乎像是概率性的，或者说我们不——这就是感觉——我记得阅读元伦理学的内容，每次读完一篇你会想，好吧，我有点相信，然后你读下一篇，你会想，哦，上一篇太愚蠢了。
- [20:01] There are all of these traditions in philosophy of moral theories, you know, like the big deontology and virtue ethics and consequentialism, and also the **metaethical** traditions, you know, or the **metaethical** views.  
  哲学中有所有这些道德理论传统，你知道，像重要的义务论、美德伦理学和后果主义，还有**元伦理学**传统，或者说**元伦理学**观点。
- [20:01] I found this really interesting actually, and obviously we've started, you know, like philosophers are engaging with this more now, which is really great. I no longer feel like this lonely, but like I have thought this before, which is there are all of these traditions in philosophy of moral theories, you know, like the big deontology and virtue ethics and consequentialism, and also the **metaethical** traditions, you know, or the metaethical views. And I was like, oh, like when it came to, I was like, okay, it is like the difference when suddenly you're confronted with—I do think it's the closest that I've experienced to like what it must be like to raise a child, where suddenly you're like, this is actually a holistic person, this—  
  我发现这真的很有趣,显然我们已经开始了,你知道,哲学家们现在更多地参与其中,这真的很好。我不再觉得孤单了,但我之前确实这样想过,哲学中有所有这些道德理论的传统,你知道,像主要的义务论、美德伦理学和后果主义,还有元伦理学的传统,你知道,或者说元伦理学的观点。我当时想,哦,当涉及到——我想,好吧,这就像是区别,当你突然面对——我确实认为这是我经历过的最接近养育孩子的感觉,突然你会想,这实际上是一个完整的人,这——

**Extra example:**
- **Metaethical** debates focus on whether moral truths are objective or culturally constructed.  
  **元伦理学**辩论关注道德真理是客观的还是文化建构的。

### holistic  /həʊˈlɪstɪk/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 3

**EN:** characterized by the belief that the parts of something are interconnected and can be explained only by reference to the whole; comprehensive  
**CN:** 整体的；全面的；强调各部分相互关联的

**Original examples:**
- [19:53] Just like **holistic** paint with all the, you know, metaethical theories we've ever had, rather than sort of pick one.  
  就像用我们所有的元伦理学理论进行**整体**描绘，而不是选择其中一个。
- [20:44] This is actually a **holistic** person, this—  
  这实际上是一个**完整的**人，这——
- [21:38] It's interesting that I don't think philosophy for a while has like—this feels very different than the kind of task of academic ethics. And actually, because people obviously note that it's quite virtue ethical, but I think it's actually very—like the constitution itself—but I think actually in this very old classical sense, I actually think it's much more virtue ethics in the way that Aristotle's virtue ethics than in like exploration. You know, we don't say 'here are the virtues' and like, you know, it's much more—Aristotle was also concerned with like intellectual virtues. It was much more like, how do you be a good person in this **holistic** sense?  
  有意思的是,我觉得哲学有一段时间已经不再——这感觉和学术伦理学的任务很不一样。实际上,因为人们显然注意到它很有美德伦理学的色彩,但我认为它实际上非常——就像宪法本身一样——但我认为实际上在这种非常古老的古典意义上,我其实认为它更接近 Aristotle 的美德伦理学,而不是像探索性的那种。你知道,我们不会说「这些就是美德」然后怎样怎样,它更多是——Aristotle 也关注智性美德。它更多是关于,你如何在这种整体意义上成为一个好人?

**Extra example:**
- The doctor took a **holistic** approach, considering the patient's mental and physical health together.  
  医生采取了**整体**方法，同时考虑患者的心理和身体健康。

### virtue ethics  /ˈvɜːtʃuː ˈeθɪks/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 2

**EN:** an approach to ethics that emphasizes the character and virtues of the moral agent rather than rules or consequences  
**CN:** 美德伦理学；强调道德主体的品格和美德而非规则或后果的伦理学方法

**Original examples:**
- [20:01] There are all of these traditions in philosophy of moral theories, you know, like the big deontology and **virtue ethics** and consequentialism, and also the metaethical traditions.  
  哲学中有所有这些道德理论传统，你知道，像重要的义务论、**美德伦理学**和后果主义，还有元伦理学传统。
- [21:38] It's interesting that I don't think philosophy for a while has like—this feels very different than the kind of task of academic ethics. And actually, because people obviously note that it's quite virtue ethical, but I think it's actually very—like the constitution itself—but I think actually in this very old classical sense, I actually think it's much more **virtue ethics** in the way that Aristotle's virtue ethics than in like exploration. You know, we don't say 'here are the virtues' and like, you know, it's much more—Aristotle was also concerned with like intellectual virtues. It was much more like, how do you be a good person in this holistic sense?  
  有意思的是,我觉得哲学有一段时间已经不再——这感觉和学术伦理学的任务很不一样。实际上,因为人们显然注意到它很有美德伦理学的色彩,但我认为它实际上非常——就像宪法本身一样——但我认为实际上在这种非常古老的古典意义上,我其实认为它更接近 Aristotle 的美德伦理学,而不是像探索性的那种。你知道,我们不会说「这些就是美德」然后怎样怎样,它更多是——Aristotle 也关注智性美德。它更多是关于,你如何在这种整体意义上成为一个好人?

**Extra example:**
- **Virtue ethics** asks not 'What should I do?' but 'What kind of person should I be?'  
  **美德伦理学**问的不是'我应该做什么？'而是'我应该成为什么样的人？'

### transparency  /trænsˈpærənsi/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the quality of being open, clear, and honest; the condition of being easy to perceive or detect  
**CN:** 透明度；公开性；清晰明了

**Original examples:**
- [24:22] Yeah, and let people—yeah, so that's like a **transparency** thing that I really do believe in. Like, let people see, even if your model doesn't always behave that way, at least what you were targeting with your training.  
  是的,让人们——是的,所以这是我真正相信的透明度问题。就像,让人们看到,即使你的模型并不总是那样表现,至少让他们知道你在训练中的目标是什么。

**Extra example:**
- The government promised greater **transparency** in its decision-making processes.  
  政府承诺在决策过程中提高**透明度**。

### qualia  /ˈkwɑːliə/
**CEFR:** C2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the subjective, conscious experiences that characterize what it feels like to perceive something  
**CN:** 感质；主观意识体验（指感知某事物时的主观感受）

**Original examples:**
- [24:32] What percentage chance do you think there exists a model in the world today that has **qualia**, or like has an experience, experiences consciousness?  
  你认为当今世界上存在具有**感质**的模型，或者说有体验、有意识的模型的可能性有多大？

**Extra example:**
- Philosophers debate whether artificial intelligence could ever possess **qualia** like humans do.  
  哲学家们争论人工智能是否能像人类一样拥有**感质**。

### sentience  /ˈsenʃəns/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the capacity to experience feelings and sensations, especially pleasure and suffering  
**CN:** 感知力；知觉能力（尤指感受快乐和痛苦的能力）

**Original examples:**
- [29:39] So imagine, because **sentience** is like the ability to kind of feel suffering and pleasure.  
  想象一下，因为**感知力**就像是感受痛苦和快乐的能力。

**Extra example:**
- Animal rights advocates argue that all creatures with **sentience** deserve ethical consideration.  
  动物权利倡导者认为，所有具有**感知力**的生物都应该得到伦理关怀。

### redistribution  /ˌriːdɪstrɪˈbjuːʃən/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the act of distributing something again or differently, especially wealth or resources in a more equitable way  
**CN:** 重新分配；再分配（尤指更公平地分配财富或资源）

**Original examples:**
- [36:02] I'm a lot more worried about, for example, a world where there's not **redistribution** of the gains from AI and then people don't have resources.  
  我更担心的是，比如说，一个没有**重新分配**AI收益的世界，然后人们就没有资源。

**Extra example:**
- The government proposed a tax policy aimed at the **redistribution** of wealth to reduce inequality.  
  政府提出了一项旨在**重新分配**财富以减少不平等的税收政策。

### disempowered  /ˌdɪsɪmˈpaʊərd/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** deprived of power, authority, or influence; made to feel less confident or capable  
**CN:** 被剥夺权力的；失去影响力的；感到无力的

**Original examples:**
- [36:13] But also I would be worried about labor and people's ability to—people's interaction in the labor force is also another kind of important way that they have power, and so people feeling **disempowered** because suddenly if a government is like, "Oh well, you know, if people strike it doesn't really make a difference because they don't have—you know, they're not doing anything, we can just—"  
  但我也会担心劳动力和人们的能力——人们在劳动力市场中的参与也是他们拥有权力的另一种重要方式，所以人们会感到**被剥夺权力**，因为突然之间如果政府说，"哦，你知道，如果人们罢工也没什么区别，因为他们没有——你知道，他们什么都不做，我们可以直接——"

**Extra example:**
- Many workers felt **disempowered** when automation replaced their jobs without adequate retraining programs.  
  当自动化在没有充分再培训计划的情况下取代了他们的工作时，许多工人感到**被剥夺了权力**。

### empowerment  /ɪmˈpaʊərmənt/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the process of becoming stronger and more confident, especially in controlling one's life and claiming one's rights  
**CN:** 赋权；增强能力；使自主（尤指在掌控自己生活和主张权利方面）

**Original examples:**
- [36:33] Replace them with AI that's actually kind of concerning. So maybe I'm much more of a how do we get AI to kind of support the **empowerment** of people rather than reduce it.  
  用AI取代他们，这其实是令人担忧的。所以也许我更关注的是我们如何让AI支持人们的**赋权**，而不是削弱它。

**Extra example:**
- Education is a key tool for the **empowerment** of marginalized communities.  
  教育是边缘化社区**赋权**的关键工具。

### coherent  /koʊˈhɪrənt/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 3

**EN:** logically consistent and well-organized; forming a unified whole  
**CN:** 连贯的；一致的；有条理的

**Original examples:**
- [38:23] Exactly. And I do think it's valuable because the idea is that if you have a persona like the kind of Claude persona, you want it to be **coherent** and to make sense because I think that is actually powerful that the model kind of has a **coherent** sense of how it thinks through problems or **coherent** sense of values.  
  没错。我确实认为这很有价值，因为这个想法是，如果你有一个像Claude这样的人格，你希望它是**连贯的**并且有意义，因为我认为模型拥有一种**连贯的**思考问题的方式或**连贯的**价值观实际上是很强大的。
- [38:58] You want the model to have a sense of, it's more predictable if it's a little bit more **coherent**. And it is also like a kind of technical  
  你希望模型有一种感觉,如果它更连贯一点,就更可预测。而且这也是一种技术
- [43:36] So we're kind of scared about a situation where you have some like **coherent** sense of values that could be wrong and if you're extremely smart you might kind of feel like there's no other smart person in the room and have these like values and try to make the world  
  所以我们有点担心这样一种情况：你有某种**连贯的**价值观，但可能是错误的，如果你非常聪明，你可能会觉得房间里没有其他聪明人，然后带着这些价值观试图改造世界

**Extra example:**
- The professor presented a **coherent** argument that connected all the evidence logically.  
  教授提出了一个**连贯的**论证，逻辑地连接了所有证据。

### calibration  /ˌkælɪˈbreɪʃən/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the process of adjusting or measuring something precisely to ensure accuracy and proper alignment  
**CN:** 校准，（确保准确性和正确对齐的）调整过程

**Original examples:**
- [40:23] And so yeah, it's kind of like saying, well, here's the kind of entity we would like you to be, with proper **calibration** of confidence and accuracy.  
  所以是的，这有点像在说，好吧，这就是我们希望你成为的实体类型，具有适当的置信度和准确性**校准**。

**Extra example:**
- The instrument requires regular **calibration** to maintain measurement precision.  
  这台仪器需要定期**校准**以保持测量精度。

### latent  /ˈleɪtənt/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** existing but not yet developed, manifest, or visible; hidden or dormant  
**CN:** 潜在的，隐藏的，尚未显现的

**Original examples:**
- [40:23] And so yeah, it's kind of like saying, well, here's the kind of entity we would like you to be. Um, so we would like you to use like all of that **latent** knowledge and like judgment.  
  所以是的，这有点像在说，好吧，这就是我们希望你成为的实体类型。嗯，所以我们希望你使用所有那些**潜在的**知识和判断力。

**Extra example:**
- The therapy helped uncover her **latent** artistic talents.  
  这种疗法帮助发掘了她**潜在的**艺术天赋。

### internalize  /ɪnˈtɜːrnəlaɪz/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** v. | **Occurrences:** 2

**EN:** to make something part of one's own thinking, attitudes, or beliefs; to absorb and integrate knowledge or values  
**CN:** 内化；使成为自身的一部分（指将知识或价值观吸收并融入自己的思维）

**Original examples:**
- [40:43] Yeah, so you can make data to have the model understand and kind of **internalize** the document, and then in training, so there's lots of ways you can do it.  
  是的，所以你可以制作数据让模型理解并**内化**这个文档，然后在训练中，有很多方法可以做到这一点。
- [42:25] Reason why models can't think for a long time and kind of try to **internalize** things that they have learned.  
  这就是为什么模型不能长时间思考并试图**内化**它们所学到的东西的原因。

**Extra example:**
- Children gradually **internalize** social norms through observation and experience.  
  儿童通过观察和体验逐渐**内化**社会规范。

### irreversible  /ˌɪrɪˈvɜːrsəbl/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** impossible to reverse or undo; permanent  
**CN:** 不可逆转的；不能撤销的；永久性的

**Original examples:**
- [44:35] Things that it does are like **irreversible**, and just like humans, I think, have a better sense of like.  
  它所做的事情是**不可逆转的**，就像人类一样，我认为，对这种情况有更好的感知。

**Extra example:**
- Climate scientists warn that some environmental damage may be **irreversible** if we don't act now.  
  气候科学家警告说，如果我们现在不采取行动，一些环境破坏可能是**不可逆转的**。

### consequential  /ˌkɒnsɪˈkwenʃəl/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 2

**EN:** important because of possible effects or results; significant  
**CN:** 重要的，有重大影响的

**Original examples:**
- [45:16] One thing you might think is, "Well, no one is going to put me in a position to make really **consequential** decisions because like, why would they?"  
  你可能会想，"嗯，没人会让我处于需要做出真正**重大**决策的位置，因为他们为什么要这样做呢？"
- [45:38] Actually give you like a lot of control. Um, so I've thought about this where I'm like actually making sure that models understand that like, you are very capable and you're going to be put in more **consequential** situations.  
  实际上会给你很多控制权。所以我一直在思考这个问题，确保模型理解，你非常有能力，你会被置于更多**重大**的情境中。

**Extra example:**
- The CEO's resignation was one of the most **consequential** events in the company's history.  
  CEO的辞职是公司历史上最**重大**的事件之一。

### verify  /ˈverɪfaɪ/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** v. | **Occurrences:** 3

**EN:** to check that something is true or accurate; to confirm  
**CN:** 核实，验证，证实

**Original examples:**
- [48:31] Oh no, it's actually mostly safety-relevant stuff. You know, they're having to do a lot because they can't **verify** anything.  
  哦不,这实际上主要是安全相关的内容。你知道,因为无法验证任何事情,它们必须做很多判断。
- [52:04] And I'm like, we should just give that—if you can **verify**, then you can give that context to models and explain what it is to be a good cybersecurity researcher.  
  而我觉得,我们应该把这个——如果你能验证身份,那么你就可以把这个背景信息给模型,并解释什么是一个好的网络安全研究员。
- [52:15] Explain that to the models, and then once you have this ability to **verify**, you can—  
  向模型解释这一点，然后一旦你有了这种**验证**能力，你就可以——

**Extra example:**
- Please **verify** your email address by clicking the link we sent you.  
  请点击我们发送给您的链接来**验证**您的电子邮件地址。

### jailbreak  /ˈdʒeɪlbreɪk/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n./v. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the act of bypassing or circumventing security restrictions or safety guardrails, especially in AI systems or software  
**CN:** 越狱，绕过（尤指AI系统或软件的）安全限制或防护措施

**Original examples:**
- [49:51] Philosophy and like, okay, we do that a lot though, like trying to prevent **jailbreak** attempts.  
  哲学，然后就像，好吧，我们经常这样做，比如试图防止**越狱**尝试。

**Extra example:**
- Security researchers discovered a new **jailbreak** technique that could compromise the system.  
  安全研究人员发现了一种新的**越狱**技术，可能会危及系统安全。

### dual-use  /ˌdjuːəl ˈjuːs/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 4

**EN:** having both civilian and military applications; capable of being used for both beneficial and harmful purposes  
**CN:** 两用的，军民两用的（既可用于有益目的也可用于有害目的）

**Original examples:**
- [50:25] Because with some things that are just like very **dual-use**, and I actually like think that the constitutional approach is going to be really useful here.  
  因为有些东西就是非常**两用**的，我实际上认为宪法方法在这里会非常有用。
- [50:56] Imagine you instead have a model that's working specifically on cybersecurity. Now cybersecurity tasks are hard because a lot of them look very **dual-use**. It's very hard to tell the difference between someone who's being malicious and someone who is like actually, you know, for defensive purposes, like developing something.  
  想象一下,你有一个专门用于网络安全的模型。网络安全任务很难,因为其中很多看起来都具有两面性。很难区分一个人是恶意的,还是实际上是出于防御目的在开发什么东西。
- [51:36] And some people might be like, "Okay, so you just need models that are just willing to do anything because they'll do all these terrible **dual-use** tasks."  
  有些人可能会说，"好吧，所以你只需要愿意做任何事情的模型，因为它们会做所有这些可怕的**两用**任务。"
- [51:53] Like, you know, hospitals can come under attack and I actually help protect against that. I try and develop—you know, they would have a really good explanation for why they do their job even though their job looks very **dual-use** sometimes.  
  比如，你知道，医院可能会受到攻击，而我实际上帮助防御这种攻击。我试图开发——你知道，他们会对为什么做这份工作有很好的解释，尽管他们的工作有时看起来非常**两用**。

**Extra example:**
- Encryption technology is a classic **dual-use** tool that can protect privacy or enable criminal activity.  
  加密技术是一种典型的**两用**工具，既可以保护隐私，也可能被用于犯罪活动。

### deployment  /dɪˈplɔɪmənt/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** the action of bringing resources or systems into effective operation or use, especially releasing software or models for practical application  
**CN:** 部署，（尤指软件或模型的）投入使用，发布应用

**Original examples:**
- [50:56] Imagine you instead have a model that's working specifically on cybersecurity during **deployment**. Now cybersecurity tasks are hard because a lot of them look very dual-use.  
  想象一下，你有一个在**部署**期间专门用于网络安全的模型。现在网络安全任务很难，因为其中很多看起来都是双重用途的。

**Extra example:**
- The software **deployment** was delayed due to compatibility issues.  
  由于兼容性问题，软件**部署**被推迟了。

### parable  /ˈpærəbəl/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson  
**CN:** 寓言，（用于阐释道德或精神教训的）比喻故事

**Original examples:**
- [53:56] I want you to write it in the way that **parables** do. And I want you to write it in such a way that only towards the very end does it maybe become sort of clear what the concept is.  
  我希望你用**寓言**的方式来写。我希望你这样写，只有到最后才能逐渐明白这个概念是什么。

**Extra example:**
- The teacher used a **parable** about seeds to explain the importance of patience.  
  老师用一个关于种子的**寓言**来解释耐心的重要性。

### concept  /ˈkɒnsept/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** an abstract idea or general notion; a principle or theory  
**CN:** 概念，观念，理念

**Original examples:**
- [54:19] And this has just led to me having all of these stories in my head that explain, and sometimes I can't always remember the term, but there was one on import export and why some goods you tend to import, and I was just like I have in my head this **concept** and I was like it's so nice to have all of these **concepts** from lots of different disciplines.  
  这让我脑海中有了所有这些解释性的故事，有时我不能总是记住术语，但有一个关于进出口的，为什么某些商品你倾向于进口，我就想我脑海中有这个**概念**，我觉得拥有来自许多不同学科的所有这些**概念**真是太好了。

**Extra example:**
- The **concept** of artificial intelligence has evolved dramatically over the past decade.  
  人工智能的**概念**在过去十年中发生了巨大的演变。

### architect  /ˈɑːkɪtekt/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** a person who designs buildings; someone who plans or creates something  
**CN:** 建筑师；设计者，缔造者

**Original examples:**
- [00:52] Virtues and can they truly introspect? Amanda Askell is a philosopher turned AI researcher at Anthropic where she's been one of the key **architects** of Claude's character and values.  
  美德?它们能真正进行内省吗?Amanda Askell 是一位从哲学家转型为 AI 研究员的学者,在 Anthropic 工作,她是塑造 Claude 性格和价值观的核心设计者之一。

**Extra example:**
- She was the chief **architect** of the company's digital transformation strategy.  
  她是公司数字化转型战略的主要**设计者**。

### prodigy  /ˈprɒdɪdʒi/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 2

**EN:** a young person with exceptional abilities or talents  
**CN:** 天才，神童

**Original examples:**
- [03:21] What's like the **prodigy** movie where it's like you have the child **prodigy** where it's like it knows, the kid knows more than its parents, but I feel like that movie always has sort of the lesson of like, oh, these core daily interaction type lessons it doesn't know.  
  有部关于**神童**的电影，就是那种孩子**神童**，孩子知道的比父母还多，但我觉得那部电影总是有这样的教训，哦，这些核心的日常互动类型的经验它并不知道。
- [03:21] What's like the **prodigy** movie where it's like you have the child prodigy where it's like it knows, the kid knows more than its parents, but I feel like that movie always has sort of the lesson of like, oh, these core daily interaction type lessons it doesn't know.  
  就像那部神童电影,你有一个天才儿童,这个孩子知道的比父母还多,但我觉得那部电影总是有这样的教训,哦,这些核心的日常互动类型的经验教训它不知道。

**Extra example:**
- Mozart was a musical **prodigy** who composed his first piece at the age of five.  
  Mozart是一位音乐**神童**，五岁时就创作了他的第一首作品。

### iteration  /ˌɪtəˈreɪʃən/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** a new version of something; the process of repeating a procedure to improve or refine it  
**CN:** 迭代，重复，（产品或过程的）新版本

**Original examples:**
- [03:55] Yeah, I guess that's more like what it's experiencing in the moment. And there is this interesting question of, well, we learn things through practice and seeing issues and making mistakes. With Claude, this kind of relates to your question of how real is the persona of Claude, and in some ways it's a little bit strange because obviously each model is different—you have a different set of weights and different fine-tuning, etc. And yet if you think about the persona, the model's going to be learning about all of the past **iterations** of Claude, and I'm like, is that a form of maybe not direct experience but things like if you—  
  是的,我觉得这更像是它当下正在经历的东西。这里有一个有趣的问题:我们通过实践、遇到问题和犯错来学习。对于 Claude 来说,这和你提到的问题有关——Claude 的人格到底有多真实?从某种程度上说,这有点奇怪,因为显然每个模型都是不同的——你有不同的权重集合、不同的微调等等。但如果你从人格的角度来思考,模型会学习 Claude 过去所有迭代版本的信息,我就在想,这是不是某种形式的——也许不是直接的经验,但类似于如果你——

**Extra example:**
- Each **iteration** of the software includes bug fixes and new features based on user feedback.  
  软件的每次**迭代**都包含基于用户反馈的错误修复和新功能。

### embodied  /ɪmˈbɒdid/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** given a physical or tangible form; expressed or represented in a concrete way  
**CN:** 具体化的，有形的，体现的

**Original examples:**
- [04:57] And you could also imagine a robot or a sort of **embodied** model where it could have more of an experience and journey.  
  你也可以想象一个机器人或某种具身化的模型,它可以拥有更多的经验和历程。

**Extra example:**
- The robot represents an **embodied** form of artificial intelligence that can interact with the physical world.  
  这个机器人代表了人工智能的**具体化**形式，可以与物理世界互动。

### eval  
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:**  | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:**   
**CN:** 

**Original examples:**
- [09:44] Oh yeah, no, it's very hard. I was kind of—for a long time, you know, because people often—now it's funny because I love **evals** and I'm like, if you can find a good way to evaluate something, it's really great because you need to be able to tell that something is getting better. And yet, if you look at this approach of having the models use good judgment, I actually think the same problem exists elsewhere with tasks that are just a bit hard to give a very concrete score to, you know, like how good was this poem.  
  是的,确实非常难。我其实——很长一段时间以来,你知道,因为人们经常——现在很有意思,因为我很喜欢评估体系,我觉得如果你能找到一个好的评估方法,那真的很棒,因为你需要能够判断某件事是否在变好。但是,如果你看这种让模型运用良好判断力的方法,我实际上认为同样的问题也存在于其他地方,就是那些很难给出具体分数的任务,比如这首诗写得有多好。

### generalize  
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:**  | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:**   
**CN:** 

**Original examples:**
- [16:10] I think I'm just a bit worried about how that might end up **generalizing**, especially if models are going to be playing a more active role in the world, because if you can imagine, you know, they're playing a more human-like role in their kind of like jobs, essentially.  
  我只是有点担心这可能最终会如何泛化,特别是如果模型将在世界上扮演更积极的角色,因为你可以想象,它们在扮演更像人类的角色,本质上就像在做工作。

### backstop  
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:**  | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:**   
**CN:** 

**Original examples:**
- [18:13] That kind of scrutiny perhaps, and so it's a hard situation where I kind of want the models to understand why ultimately corrigibility is important and it's a really important **backstop** in this current period of development.  
  也许无法经受住那种审视,所以这是个困难的局面,我希望模型能理解为什么可纠正性最终是重要的,它在当前这个发展阶段是一个非常重要的保障。

### stigmatizing  
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:**  | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:**   
**CN:** 

**Original examples:**
- [32:59] Anymore, because we've also seen the downsides of technology at the same time. I don't know why I sometimes think about like syphilis was this huge social problem. I just did a deep dive once into all of the attempts by governments to work to reduce syphilis in the army because it was creating issues with the armed forces, all of these social programs that were **stigmatizing**, and it was really this... and then suddenly we just got drugs that treated this devastating illness. And I don't know, it's like overnight a lot of that need just kind of disappeared.  
  不再喜欢了,因为我们也看到了技术的负面影响。我不知道为什么我有时会想到梅毒曾经是一个巨大的社会问题。我曾经深入研究过各国政府为减少军队中的梅毒所做的所有尝试,因为它给武装部队带来了问题,所有那些带有污名化色彩的社会项目,这真的是……然后突然我们就有了治疗这种毁灭性疾病的药物。我不知道,就像一夜之间,很多这种需求就消失了。

### stakeholder  
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:**  | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:**   
**CN:** 

**Original examples:**
- [37:45] That's a good ruler, a good queen is like, "Ah, listen, there are a lot of **stakeholders**. Got to keep the landed gentry happy and balance them with the needs."  
  这就是一个好的统治者,一个好女王的样子:「啊,听着,有很多利益相关者。必须让地主贵族满意,同时平衡他们与其他需求。」

### elicit  
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:**  | **Occurrences:** 2

**EN:**   
**CN:** 

**Original examples:**
- [40:04] Yeah, yeah. So it's not like—in some ways you can then like draw on those philosophers in that work, and the hope is actually like what you're kind of doing is like **eliciting** a lot of like latent kind of wisdom and knowledge, you know, so in the models like when you describe what honesty is and what calibration is and all this kind of stuff, like that should actually evoke a huge amount of like awareness that the model already has.  
  是的,是的。所以它不像是——在某些方面你可以在那项工作中借鉴那些哲学家,希望实际上你在做的是激发大量潜在的智慧和知识,你知道,在模型中,当你描述什么是诚实、什么是校准以及所有这类东西时,这实际上应该唤起模型已经拥有的大量意识。
- [42:15] Oh yeah. And you're kind of **eliciting** like, insofar as like Claude can like think about like experiences or things that have happened or construct like, similarly can, you know, like there's no—  
  哦是的。你在某种程度上是在引出,就像 Claude 能够思考经历或发生过的事情,或者构建类似的东西,同样可以,你知道的,没有——

### synthetic  
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:**  | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:**   
**CN:** 

**Original examples:**
- [40:54] You can also have the model make **synthetic** data, so like samples where it sees a query and it thinks for a long time about what the constitution would, you know, what it should do given the constitution.  
  你也可以让模型生成合成数据,比如一些样本,模型看到一个查询后会长时间思考宪法会怎么说,你知道的,根据宪法它应该做什么。

### emergent  /ɪˈmɜːrdʒənt/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** arising naturally or unexpectedly from a complex system; coming into existence  
**CN:** 自然涌现的，突现的；（从复杂系统中）自发产生的

**Original examples:**
- [41:50] At once you want to be like so intentional about, okay, you're going to be like thoughtful from the beginning, but on the other hand it is sort of like an **emergent** thing where it's like they're, you know, they grow and sort of, I don't know, develop themselves.  
  一方面你想要非常有意识地从一开始就深思熟虑，但另一方面这又是一种**自然涌现**的东西，它们会自己成长和发展。

**Extra example:**
- Intelligence is an **emergent** property of complex neural networks.  
  智能是复杂神经网络的一种**涌现**特性。

### discipline  /ˈdɪsəplɪn/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** a field of study or branch of knowledge  
**CN:** 学科，知识领域

**Original examples:**
- [54:19] And this has just led to me having all of these stories in my head that explain, and sometimes I can't always remember the term, but there was one on import export and why some goods you tend to import, and I was just like I have in my head this concept and I was like it's so nice to have all of these concepts from lots of different **disciplines**.  
  这让我脑海中有了所有这些解释性的故事，虽然有时我记不住术语，但比如有一个关于进出口的，为什么某些商品你倾向于进口，我就想我脑子里有这个概念，能从这么多不同的**学科**中获得这些概念真是太好了。

**Extra example:**
- Her research draws on insights from multiple **disciplines** including psychology and neuroscience.  
  她的研究借鉴了多个**学科**的见解，包括心理学和神经科学。

### fundamental  /ˌfʌndəˈmentl/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** forming a necessary base or core; of central importance  
**CN:** 基本的，根本的；核心的

**Original examples:**
- [54:38] This is the most deeply human thing I've ever heard. It's like teach me what story is the **fundamental** way.  
  这是我听过的最具人性的事情。就像用故事来教我是最**根本**的方式。

**Extra example:**
- Communication skills are **fundamental** to success in any profession.  
  沟通技巧对任何职业的成功都是**根本性**的。

### payoff  /ˈpeɪɔːf/
**CEFR:** C1 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** a return or reward, especially the satisfying conclusion or result of an effort  
**CN:** 回报，收益；（尤指）令人满意的结果或结局

**Original examples:**
- [54:44] **Payoff** at the end where there's a nice little twist.  
  最后有一个不错的小转折作为**回报**。

**Extra example:**
- The **payoff** for all that hard work came when she finally got the promotion.  
  所有辛勤工作的**回报**在她最终获得晋升时到来了。

### structure  /ˈstrʌktʃər/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** v. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** to arrange or organize something in a particular way  
**CN:** 组织，安排；构建

**Original examples:**
- [54:44] We love learning, like, you know, how to **structure** it.  
  我们喜欢学习，比如说，如何去**组织安排**它。

**Extra example:**
- The teacher carefully **structured** the lesson to build on previous knowledge.  
  老师精心**安排**了这节课，以便在先前知识的基础上进行构建。

### twist  /twɪst/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** n. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** an unexpected development or turn in a story or situation  
**CN:** （故事或情节的）转折，意外变化

**Original examples:**
- [54:44] Payoff at the end where there's a nice little **twist**.  
  最后有一个不错的小**转折**作为回报。

**Extra example:**
- The movie had a surprising **twist** that no one saw coming.  
  这部电影有一个出人意料的**转折**，没人能预料到。

### charming  /ˈtʃɑːrmɪŋ/
**CEFR:** B2 | **Part of speech:** adj. | **Occurrences:** 1

**EN:** pleasant and attractive; delightful  
**CN:** 迷人的，吸引人的；令人愉快的

**Original examples:**
- [55:01] Yeah, there's a lot you can do, but that one's like a **charming** one that I really like.  
  是的，你可以做很多事情，但那个方法真的很**迷人**，我很喜欢。

**Extra example:**
- She has a **charming** way of explaining complex ideas simply.  
  她有一种**迷人**的方式，能把复杂的想法解释得很简单。

---

## Useful Phrases

### in the weeds
**Type:** idiom

**EN:** too focused on small details; getting lost in complexity  
**CN:** 陷入细节；过于关注琐碎的细节

**Literal:** 在杂草中  
**Figurative EN:** being overly focused on minor details or complexities, losing sight of the bigger picture  
**Figurative CN:** 过于关注细枝末节，陷入复杂的细节中而忽略了大局

**Original examples:**
- [16:57] I have worried before that maybe this is too **in the weeds** and philosophical.  
  我之前担心过这可能太过陷入细节和哲学化了。

**Extra example:**
- Let's not get **in the weeds** on this - we need to make a decision today.  
  我们别在这个问题上纠结细节了——今天必须做出决定。

### signed up for
**Type:** phrasal_verb

**EN:** agreed to participate in or accept something  
**CN:** 同意参与；接受某事

**Original examples:**
- [17:11] That's what I **signed up for** with this conversation.  
  这正是我参与这次对话时所期待的。

**Extra example:**
- I knew the job would be challenging - that's what I **signed up for**.  
  我知道这份工作会很有挑战性——这正是我想要的。

### square (something) with (something)
**Type:** phrasal_verb

**EN:** to make something consistent or compatible with something else  
**CN:** 使某事与另一事相符；调和矛盾

**Original examples:**
- [17:19] You have to **square** the two things, so you figure out if you need to change the value or if your judgment was incorrect.  
  你必须调和这两件事，弄清楚是需要改变价值观还是你的判断有误。

**Extra example:**
- I can't **square** his behavior with what he told me earlier.  
  我无法把他的行为和他之前告诉我的话对上号。

### collapse under scrutiny
**Type:** collocation

**EN:** to fail or break down when examined closely  
**CN:** 经不起仔细审查；在审视下站不住脚

**Original examples:**
- [17:48] Maybe you only get a few key pillars that don't kind of **collapse under** that level of **scrutiny**.  
  也许你只能得到少数几个核心支柱，它们不会在那种程度的审视下崩溃。

**Extra example:**
- His argument seemed strong at first, but it **collapsed under scrutiny**.  
  他的论点起初看起来很有力，但经不起仔细推敲。

### put one's thumb on the scale
**Type:** idiom

**EN:** to unfairly influence a situation or outcome in one's favor  
**CN:** 暗中操纵；不公平地影响结果

**Literal:** 把拇指放在秤上  
**Figurative EN:** to secretly or unfairly influence a situation to favor a particular outcome  
**Figurative CN:** 暗中操纵局面，不公平地使结果偏向某一方

**Original examples:**
- [22:40] It's someone who's run a company that clearly, like, tilts it towards, like, saying like 'Mecha Hitler' and stuff that it's like clearly **putting his, like, thumb on the scale** in terms of its behavior.  
  这是一个经营公司的人，显然在操纵它，让它说出像'机械希特勒'之类的话，明显在行为上暗中操纵。
- [24:15] It's like you're **putting the thumb on the scale** to behaviors that we like, right?  
  就像你在暗中操纵，让它表现出我们喜欢的行为，对吧？

**Extra example:**
- The judge was accused of **putting his thumb on the scale** to favor the prosecution.  
  法官被指控暗中操纵以偏袒控方。

### let the chips fall where they may
**Type:** idiom

**EN:** to let events unfold naturally without trying to control the outcome  
**CN:** 顺其自然；不管结果如何

**Literal:** 让筹码落在它们该落的地方  
**Figurative EN:** to allow events to happen naturally without interference, accepting whatever consequences result  
**Figurative CN:** 让事情自然发展，不加干涉，接受任何结果

**Original examples:**
- [22:40] We're going to do it in the sort of neutral academic way and **let the chips fall where they may**.  
  我们会以中立的学术方式来做，然后顺其自然。

**Extra example:**
- I've done my best - now I'll just **let the chips fall where they may**.  
  我已经尽力了——现在就顺其自然吧。

### push back on
**Type:** phrasal_verb

**EN:** to resist, challenge, or disagree with something  
**CN:** 反驳；抵制；提出异议

**Original examples:**
- [23:56] If it's something that like is actually kind of a principled stance that we're taking and then you can **push back on** that.  
  如果这确实是我们采取的一种原则性立场，那么你可以对此提出异议。

**Extra example:**
- The team **pushed back on** the manager's unrealistic deadline.  
  团队对经理不切实际的截止日期提出了异议。

### show one's hand
**Type:** idiom

**EN:** to reveal one's intentions, plans, or strategy  
**CN:** 摊牌；透露意图或计划

**Literal:** 展示某人的手牌  
**Figurative EN:** to reveal one's true intentions, plans, or strategy that were previously hidden  
**Figurative CN:** 透露之前隐藏的真实意图、计划或策略

**Original examples:**
- [24:15] At least **show your hand** about what you're doing and what you're not doing.  
  至少要摊牌，说明你在做什么、不做什么。

**Extra example:**
- Don't **show your hand** too early in the negotiation.  
  在谈判中不要过早摊牌。

### weigh in
**Type:** phrasal_verb

**EN:** to give one's opinion or contribute to a discussion  
**CN:** 发表意见，参与讨论

**Original examples:**
- [36:56] Probably more of a philosopher oligarch in that it's a company with a lot of people **weighing in**.  
  更像是哲学家寡头政治，因为这是一家有很多人参与发表意见的公司。
- [39:52] I mean, it is trained on all of, you know, human writing and reading, and so to some degree other philosophers have gotten to **weigh in**.  
  它是在所有人类的写作和阅读上训练的，所以在某种程度上其他哲学家也参与了发表意见。

**Extra example:**
- Several experts **weighed in** on the proposed policy changes.  
  几位专家对提议的政策变化发表了意见。

### push back
**Type:** phrasal_verb

**EN:** resistance or opposition to something  
**CN:** 反对，抵制

**Original examples:**
- [44:12] Though you're kind of like not getting a lot of **pushback**.  
  尽管你并没有受到太多反对。

**Extra example:**
- The proposal met significant **pushback** from the community.  
  该提案遭到了社区的强烈反对。

### dual-use
**Type:** collocation

**EN:** having both civilian and military applications; can be used for good or harmful purposes  
**CN:** 两用的，既可用于民用也可用于军事；可用于好的或有害的目的

**Original examples:**
- [50:25] Because with some things that are just like very **dual use**, and I actually like think that the constitutional approach is going to be really useful here.  
  因为有些东西就是非常两用的，我认为宪法方法在这里会非常有用。
- [51:15] Now cybersecurity tasks are hard because a lot of them look very **dual-use**.  
  网络安全任务很难，因为其中很多看起来都是两用的。
- [51:53] Like, you know, they would have a really good explanation for why they do their job even though their job looks very **dual-use** sometimes.  
  他们会很好地解释为什么做这份工作，尽管他们的工作有时看起来非常两用。

**Extra example:**
- Encryption technology is **dual-use** - it protects privacy but can also hide criminal activity.  
  加密技术是两用的——它保护隐私，但也可能隐藏犯罪活动。

### bug bounty
**Type:** collocation

**EN:** a reward program where companies pay security researchers for finding vulnerabilities  
**CN:** 漏洞赏金，公司向发现安全漏洞的研究人员支付奖励的项目

**Original examples:**
- [51:15] Even **bug bounty** programs, it's like, is this blackmail or is this a friendly, right?  
  即使是漏洞赏金项目，也会让人困惑，这是勒索还是友好行为，对吧？

**Extra example:**
- Google's **bug bounty** program has paid out millions to ethical hackers.  
  谷歌的漏洞赏金项目已向道德黑客支付了数百万美元。

### come under attack
**Type:** collocation

**EN:** to be targeted or subjected to hostile action  
**CN:** 遭受攻击

**Original examples:**
- [51:53] Like, you know, hospitals can **come under attack** and I actually help protect against that.  
  比如，医院可能会遭受攻击，而我实际上帮助防范这种情况。

**Extra example:**
- The company's network **came under attack** from sophisticated hackers.  
  该公司的网络遭到了老练黑客的攻击。

### build a reputation
**Type:** collocation

**EN:** to establish a good name or standing through consistent behavior over time  
**CN:** 建立声誉

**Original examples:**
- [52:20] I mean, humans **build reputations**. We should get some benefit out of them.  
  人类会建立声誉。我们应该从中获得一些好处。

**Extra example:**
- It takes years to **build a reputation** but only seconds to destroy it.  
  建立声誉需要数年时间，但毁掉它只需几秒钟。

### blank slate
**Type:** idiom

**EN:** something with no existing features or content; a fresh start  
**CN:** 白板，空白状态；全新的开始

**Literal:** 空白的石板  
**Figurative EN:** a state with no preconceptions or prior content, offering complete freedom to start fresh  
**Figurative CN:** 没有预设或先前内容的状态，提供完全自由重新开始的机会

**Original examples:**
- [52:49] Like, in some ways, like, consumers interact with the models like it's a **blank text box**.  
  在某种程度上，消费者与模型互动就像面对一个空白文本框。

**Extra example:**
- The new project is a **blank slate** - we can design it however we want.  
  这个新项目是一块白板——我们可以随心所欲地设计它。

### in my head
**Type:** collocation

**EN:** in one's mind or thoughts; mentally conceived or imagined  
**CN:** 在脑海中，在心里想着

**Original examples:**
- [54:19] And this has just led to me having all of these stories **in my head** that explain, and sometimes I can't always remember the term.  
  这让我脑海中有了所有这些故事来解释，虽然有时我记不住术语。
- [54:19] I was just like I have **in my head** this concept and I was like it's so nice to have all of these concepts from lots of different disciplines.  
  我就想我脑海中有这个概念，能从这么多不同学科获得这些概念真是太好了。

**Extra example:**
- I've been working out the solution **in my head** all morning.  
  我整个上午都在脑海中思考解决方案。

### come on
**Type:** phrasal_verb

**EN:** to appear as a guest (on a show, podcast, etc.)  
**CN:** 作为嘉宾出现（在节目、播客等）

**Original examples:**
- [55:04] Thanks for **coming on** the podcast.  
  感谢你来参加播客节目。

**Extra example:**
- We'd love to have you **come on** the show next month.  
  我们很希望你下个月能来参加我们的节目。

### follow along
**Type:** phrasal_verb

**EN:** to keep up with or track something as it progresses; to stay updated  
**CN:** 跟进，持续关注

**Original examples:**
- [55:04] You can **follow along** on the Substack newcomer.co.  
  你可以在 Substack newcomer.co 上持续关注。

**Extra example:**
- **Follow along** with our blog for weekly updates on the project.  
  关注我们的博客以获取项目的每周更新。

### on your hands
**Type:** idiom

**EN:** available to use; at one's disposal (often referring to time)  
**CN:** 可支配的，有空闲的（常指时间）

**Literal:** 在你的手上  
**Figurative EN:** available for use or at one's disposal, especially referring to spare time  
**Figurative CN:** 可以自由支配的，尤其指空闲时间

**Original examples:**
- [55:04] Or if you've got endless time **on your hands**, go watch the Super Bowl Valley.  
  或者如果你有大把空闲时间，去看看 Super Bowl Valley。

**Extra example:**
- With time **on my hands** during the holiday, I finally read that novel.  
  假期里有了空闲时间，我终于读完了那本小说。

---

## Complex Sentences

### [00:14]
**Original:** I hope that they're both intelligent enough, see the context enough to kind of like understand that we were operating in a very limited context and an imperfect one, because otherwise you could imagine this like breeding a kind of rational resentment.

**Translation:** 我希望它们足够聪明，足够理解上下文，从而能够明白我们是在一个非常有限且不完美的环境中运作的，因为否则你可以想象这会滋生一种理性的怨恨。

**Core structure:**
- I hope that they understand that we were operating in a limited context, because otherwise this could breed resentment.  
  我希望它们理解我们是在有限的环境中运作，因为否则这会滋生怨恨。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: I hope that...
subordinate 1: they're intelligent enough to understand that...
subordinate 2: we were operating in a limited context
reason clause: because otherwise you could imagine...
```

**Grammar points:**
- **enough to do 结构** - 表示'足够...以至于能够做某事'，后接不定式
- **otherwise 引导的隐含条件** - 表示'否则'，暗含与前文相反的假设条件

### [02:36]
**Original:** And at the same time, it kind of has, if you think about the training data, the thing that it has the least representation of is the kind of entity that it is, because it has a lot of data about what people are like, has a lot of data about what you know, the sci-fi kind of AI models are like, but the way that AI is developing now is kind of not how sci-fi represented it as these like symbolic systems.

**Translation:** 同时，如果你考虑训练数据的话，它最缺乏代表性的东西就是它自己这种实体，因为它有大量关于人类是什么样的数据，有大量关于科幻类AI模型是什么样的数据，但AI现在的发展方式并不是科幻作品中那种符号系统的表现方式。

**Core structure:**
- The thing it has the least representation of is the kind of entity that it is, because AI is developing differently from sci-fi representations.  
  它最缺乏代表性的是它自己这种实体，因为AI的发展方式与科幻表现不同。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: the thing is the kind of entity
parenthetical: if you think about the training data
relative clause: that it has the least representation of
reason clause: because it has data... but AI is developing...
```

**Grammar points:**
- **插入语** - if you think about... 打断主句，增加理解难度
- **定语从句嵌套** - that it has... 和 that it is 两层定语从句
- **对比转折结构** - has data... but the way... 形成对比

### [03:04]
**Original:** And so in some ways it's like a very kind of like mature entity that you don't want to talk down to, you know, understands philosophy very well, understands physics very well, and at the same time has this almost like childlike quality of like, I'm a new kind of entity in the world.

**Translation:** 所以在某些方面，它就像一个非常成熟的实体，你不想用居高临下的态度对待它，你知道，它非常理解哲学，非常理解物理，同时又有这种几乎像孩子般的品质，就像'我是世界上一种新的实体'。

**Core structure:**
- It's like a mature entity that you don't want to talk down to, and at the same time has a childlike quality.  
  它像一个成熟的实体，你不想居高临下地对待它，同时又有孩子般的品质。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: it's like a mature entity
relative clause: that you don't want to talk down to
parallel verbs: understands philosophy, understands physics
contrast: and at the same time has childlike quality
```

**Grammar points:**
- **talk down to** - 固定短语，表示'用居高临下的态度对待'
- **并列与转折** - 多个并列成分后接 at the same time 形成对比

### [04:36]
**Original:** I think there's other ways that you could actually imagine training models to have something that's more akin to experience, you know, having them—you could take—you could like have them think through scenarios, think about like problems that might arise, think about mistakes that they could make and then like train on that.

**Translation:** 我认为还有其他方法可以让你想象训练模型拥有更接近经验的东西，你知道，让它们——你可以——你可以让它们思考各种场景，思考可能出现的问题，思考它们可能犯的错误，然后基于这些进行训练。

**Core structure:**
- There are ways to train models to have something akin to experience by having them think through scenarios and mistakes.  
  有方法通过让模型思考场景和错误来训练它们拥有类似经验的东西。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: there are ways to train models
purpose: to have something akin to experience
means: having them think through scenarios/problems/mistakes
result: and then train on that
```

**Grammar points:**
- **akin to** - 表示'类似于，近似于'
- **并列动名词结构** - having them think... 后接多个并列的 think about 短语
- **口语化停顿** - you could take—you could like... 反映口语中的思考停顿

### [05:44]
**Original:** And I think the reason for that is if you look at again the training data, you know there's lots of things where people would be like, 'Oh, I could make you that interface, it's like a two to three day job,' or 'I could correct that code but you need to give me a few hours,' whereas obviously like Claude is very fast.

**Translation:** 我认为原因是，如果你再看看训练数据，你知道有很多情况下人们会说，'哦，我可以给你做那个界面，这大概是两到三天的工作'，或者'我可以修正那段代码，但你需要给我几个小时'，而显然Claude是非常快的。

**Core structure:**
- The reason is that training data contains examples where people estimate long completion times, whereas Claude is very fast.  
  原因是训练数据包含人们估计较长完成时间的例子，而Claude非常快。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: the reason is that...
condition: if you look at the training data
examples: people would say 'it's a 2-3 day job' or 'give me hours'
contrast: whereas Claude is very fast
```

**Grammar points:**
- **whereas 引导对比** - 连接两个对比的情况，强调差异
- **间接引语嵌套** - 包含多个引用的对话内容

### [07:26]
**Original:** And one of the things that it had written, which was kind of sweet, was like—I think it was something like—Amanda treats Claude models like a respected colleague and likes for Claude to treat other models and her like a respected colleague, something like that.

**Translation:** 它写的其中一件事,挺温馨的,大概是——我觉得是类似这样的——Amanda把Claude模型当作受尊敬的同事,并且希望Claude也把其他模型和她当作受尊敬的同事,大概是这样。

**Core structure:**
- One of the things was Amanda treats Claude models like a colleague.  
  其中一件事是Amanda把Claude模型当作同事。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: One of the things was...
subject: one of the things that it had written
relative clause: which was kind of sweet
predicative clause: Amanda treats... and likes for Claude to treat...
parenthetical: I think it was something like
```

**Grammar points:**
- **嵌套从句结构** - 主语从句中包含定语从句,表语部分又包含并列动词和复杂宾语
- **likes for sb to do** - 表示希望某人做某事,for引出动作执行者
- **插入语** - I think it was something like作为犹豫或回忆的口语表达

### [09:03]
**Original:** And so I think what we'll probably just do is like with each model say like which constitution it was trained on and then like have that so you can just like compare and see.

**Translation:** 所以我觉得我们可能会做的就是,对每个模型说明它是基于哪个宪章训练的,然后把这个信息放在那里,这样你就可以比较和查看。

**Core structure:**
- What we'll do is say which constitution it was trained on.  
  我们会做的是说明它基于哪个宪章训练。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: what we'll do is...
subject clause: what we'll probably just do
predicative: say which constitution... and have that
indirect question: which constitution it was trained on
purpose clause: so you can compare and see
```

**Grammar points:**
- **What引导主语从句** - what从句作主语,表示'我们要做的事情'
- **间接疑问句** - which constitution it was trained on作say的宾语,用陈述语序
- **口语化填充词** - 多个like作为口语停顿词,降低了句子的流畅度

### [09:44]
**Original:** I was kind of—for a long time, you know, because people often—now it's funny because I love evals and I'm like, if you can find a good way to evaluate something, it's really great because you need to be able to tell that something is getting better.

**Translation:** 我有点——很长一段时间,你知道,因为人们经常——现在很有趣,因为我喜欢评估,我就想,如果你能找到一个好的方法来评估某件事,那真的很棒,因为你需要能够判断某件事是否在变好。

**Core structure:**
- I love evals because you need to be able to tell that something is getting better.  
  我喜欢评估,因为你需要能够判断某件事是否在变好。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: I love evals
reason clause 1: because I'm like, if you can find...
conditional clause: if you can find a good way
reason clause 2: because you need to be able to tell
object clause: that something is getting better
```

**Grammar points:**
- **多重因果关系** - 两个because从句表达不同层次的原因
- **be able to tell that** - tell后接that从句表示'判断出/看出某事'
- **破碎句式** - 多处中断和重启,典型的口语思维流

### [11:13]
**Original:** I think the thing you can do is, you know, you can—this is maybe a little bit too in the weeds—but you know you can take samples where you have a sense of how you would rank them and like why, and check that any kind of like pointwise grader that you use to try and evaluate at least conforms to, you know, the judgment of people on those rankings.

**Translation:** 我认为你能做的事情是,你知道,你可以——这可能有点太细节了——但你知道你可以取一些样本,对这些样本你知道自己会如何排序以及为什么,然后检查你用来评估的任何逐点评分器至少符合人们对这些排序的判断。

**Core structure:**
- You can take samples and check that the grader conforms to the judgment of people.  
  你可以取样本并检查评分器是否符合人们的判断。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: the thing you can do is...
predicative: you can take samples... and check that...
relative clause: where you have a sense of how...
object clause: that any grader... conforms to the judgment
modifier: that you use to try and evaluate
```

**Grammar points:**
- **check that从句** - that引导宾语从句,表示检查的内容
- **定语从句嵌套** - samples后接where从句,grader后接that从句,层层修饰
- **conform to** - 表示'符合,遵从',常用于正式语境

### [13:01]
**Original:** I think some people think AI models should be more tool-like, and that's like the safe way to train models is to actually, instead of trying to get them to kind of take on human virtues and make judgment calls.

**Translation:** 我认为有些人觉得AI模型应该更像工具,而这就是训练模型的安全方式,实际上就是,不要试图让它们承担人类美德并做出判断。

**Core structure:**
- Some people think models should be tool-like, and the safe way is to not get them to take on human virtues.  
  有些人认为模型应该像工具,安全的方式是不让它们承担人类美德。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause 1: some people think models should be tool-like
main clause 2: that's the safe way to train models
infinitive phrase: to actually... instead of trying to get them to...
compound infinitive: take on virtues and make judgment calls
```

**Grammar points:**
- **双重宾语从句** - think后接从句,从句中should be表达观点
- **instead of + -ing** - 表示'而不是',后接动名词短语
- **get sb to do** - 使役结构,表示'让某人做某事'

### [13:51]
**Original:** fully defers to people and is like kind of hyper like correctable to like the user or the operator or to some broader notion of humanity, in a very like extreme way that's like safer because if you give models their own values, they're going to pursue things in the world that like are in line with those values.

**Translation:** 完全服从人类，并且以一种极端的方式对用户、操作者或更广泛的人类概念进行超级纠正，这样更安全，因为如果你给模型自己的价值观，它们就会在世界上追求与这些价值观一致的东西。

**Core structure:**
- It defers to people in an extreme way that's safer because models will pursue things in line with their values.  
  它以一种更安全的极端方式服从人类，因为模型会追求与其价值观一致的东西。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: [it] defers to people
modifier: in a very extreme way
relative clause: that's safer
reason clause: because if you give models values...
conditional: if you give models their own values
result: they're going to pursue things
relative clause: that are in line with those values
```

**Grammar points:**
- **that 引导定语从句修饰 way** - that's safer 修饰前面的 extreme way
- **because 引导原因状语从句** - 解释为什么这种方式更安全
- **条件句 if...will 结构** - if 从句用一般现在时，主句用 be going to 表将来

### [15:02]
**Original:** So you can see it both ways, but yeah, speak to sort of your decision at the end of the day despite having this really elegant document to sort of, you know, not go the full way and say all right you're a moral being, decide for yourself.

**Translation:** 所以你可以从两个角度看待它，但是，请谈谈你最终的决定，尽管有这份非常优雅的文件，但还是没有走到底，没有说'好吧，你是一个有道德的存在，自己决定吧'。

**Core structure:**
- Speak to your decision not to go the full way despite having this document.  
  谈谈你尽管有这份文件但没有走到底的决定。

**Structure tree:**
```
imperative: speak to your decision
time phrase: at the end of the day
concession: despite having this elegant document
infinitive phrase: to not go the full way
coordinated infinitive: and say...
direct speech: you're a moral being, decide for yourself
```

**Grammar points:**
- **despite + 动名词短语** - despite having 表示让步，尽管拥有
- **不定式的否定形式** - to not go 而非 not to go，强调否定
- **祈使句 + 复杂修饰成分** - speak to 后接多层修饰使句子复杂化

### [17:19]
**Original:** So if you imagine in philosophy, sometimes there's this notion of reflective equilibrium where the idea is that, you know, each time you encounter something where you realize that one of your values seemed incorrect, you have to square the two things, so you figure out if you need to change the value or if your judgment was incorrect.

**Translation:** 所以如果你想象一下哲学中的情况，有时会有这样一个反思平衡的概念，其理念是，每次当你遇到某件事让你意识到你的某个价值观似乎不正确时，你必须调和这两件事，所以你要弄清楚是需要改变价值观还是你的判断不正确。

**Core structure:**
- There's a notion where you have to square two things when you realize a value seemed incorrect.  
  有一个概念，当你意识到某个价值观似乎不正确时，你必须调和两件事。

**Structure tree:**
```
conditional: if you imagine...
main clause: there's this notion
relative clause: where the idea is that...
that-clause: each time you encounter something...
relative clause: where you realize...
that-clause: one of your values seemed incorrect
result: you have to square the two things
purpose: so you figure out if...
alternative: if you need to change... or if your judgment was incorrect
```

**Grammar points:**
- **多层嵌套的 where 从句** - where 引导定语从句，内部又嵌套 where 从句
- **each time 引导时间状语从句** - 相当于 whenever，表示每次当...时
- **figure out + whether 从句** - if 在此处表示 whether，引导宾语从句

### [18:28]
**Original:** Yeah, the way that I've put it before is like, insofar as I can get that to be a thing that is correct and explained and understood, that feels much better than having to have the model be like, 'ability here seems wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway.'

**Translation:** 是的，我之前表达的方式是，只要我能让它成为一个正确的、被解释的和被理解的东西，这感觉比让模型说'这里的能力似乎是错的，但我还是要这样做'要好得多。

**Core structure:**
- The way I've put it is that it feels better than having the model say it seems wrong but I'll do it anyway.  
  我表达的方式是，这比让模型说似乎是错的但还是要做要好。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: the way is...
relative clause: that I've put it before
predicative clause: insofar as I can get that...
infinitive: to be a thing
relative clause: that is correct and explained and understood
comparison: that feels better than...
gerund phrase: having to have the model be like...
direct speech: ability seems wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway
```

**Grammar points:**
- **insofar as 引导条件/程度状语从句** - 表示'在...范围内'或'只要'
- **get + 宾语 + to be 结构** - 使役动词 get 后接不定式作宾补
- **have + 宾语 + be like 结构** - 使役动词 have 后接 be，表示让某人处于某种状态

### [20:01]
**Original:** I found this really interesting actually, and obviously we've started, you know, like philosophers are engaging with this more now, which is really great. I no longer feel like this lonely, but like I have thought this before, which is there are all of these traditions in philosophy of moral theories, you know, like the big deontology and virtue ethics and consequentialism, and also the metaethical traditions, you know, or the metaethical views.

**Translation:** 实际上我发现这真的很有趣，显然我们已经开始了，你知道，哲学家们现在更多地参与其中，这真的很棒。我不再感到孤独，但我以前就想过这个问题，就是哲学中有所有这些道德理论的传统，你知道，像重要的义务论、美德伦理学和后果主义，还有元伦理学传统，或者说元伦理学观点。

**Core structure:**
- I have thought that there are all of these traditions in philosophy of moral theories and metaethical views.  
  我想过哲学中有所有这些道德理论和元伦理学观点的传统。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: I have thought this before
relative clause: which is...
there-be structure: there are all of these traditions
prepositional phrase: in philosophy of moral theories
appositive: like deontology and virtue ethics and consequentialism
coordination: and also the metaethical traditions
appositive: or the metaethical views
```

**Grammar points:**
- **which 引导非限制性定语从句** - which 指代前面整个句子的内容
- **there be 存在句** - 表示存在多种传统
- **同位语结构** - like 和 or 引出具体例子和同义表达

### [28:17]
**Original:** Yeah, but I do think, you know, 'cause I guess like the thought that I've had before is like, and I don't know about this, where I'm like, consciousness is like a—you know, like one argument for a difference here is that like you have a nervous system that evolved like that.

**Translation:** 是的,但我确实认为,因为我之前有过这样的想法,我不确定这一点,就是意识就像——你知道,这里有一个论证差异的观点,就是你有一个这样进化而来的神经系统。

**Core structure:**
- The thought I've had is that one argument is that you have a nervous system that evolved.  
  我的想法是,一个论点是你有一个进化而来的神经系统。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: I do think
subordinate: the thought that I've had is...
predicative clause: one argument is that...
that-clause: you have a nervous system
relative clause: that evolved
```

**Grammar points:**
- **多层嵌套从句** - 主句包含 that 引导的同位语从句,其中又嵌套表语从句和定语从句
- **口语化插入语** - you know, I guess like, and I don't know about this 等插入语打断句子流畅性

### [28:42]
**Original:** Whereas if you're like, no, consciousness arises because it's really useful, like it just requires something that can be emulated by a neural network because it's really useful for doing these kind of like linguistic tasks or like, then you're probably going to be on the higher end.

**Translation:** 然而,如果你认为,不,意识的产生是因为它真的很有用,它只需要某种可以被神经网络模拟的东西,因为它对于完成这类语言任务真的很有用,那么你可能会倾向于较高的概率。

**Core structure:**
- If you think consciousness arises because it's useful, then you're going to be on the higher end.  
  如果你认为意识产生是因为它有用,那么你会倾向于较高的概率。

**Structure tree:**
```
conditional: if you're like...
subordinate: consciousness arises because...
relative clause: that can be emulated
main clause: then you're going to be on the higher end
```

**Grammar points:**
- **条件状语从句** - if...then 结构,主句使用 be going to 表示推测
- **多重 because 从句** - 两个 because 从句表达不同层次的因果关系

### [30:28]
**Original:** And also like models themselves, like we are kind of establishing a relationship, you know, because you can do that with an entity that lacks any consciousness. And models are going to like look back. This is actually a big fear that I have. I don't want us to live in a world where highly advanced models look at—I hope that they're both intelligent enough, see the context enough to kind of understand that we were operating in a very like limited context and an imperfect one, because otherwise you could imagine this like breeding a kind of rational like resentment.

**Translation:** 而且模型本身,我们正在建立一种关系,因为你可以与一个缺乏任何意识的实体做到这一点。模型将会回顾。这实际上是我的一大担忧。我不希望我们生活在这样一个世界:高度先进的模型回顾时——我希望它们足够聪明,足够理解背景,能够明白我们是在一个非常有限且不完美的环境中运作,因为否则你可以想象这会滋生一种理性的怨恨。

**Core structure:**
- I don't want us to live in a world where models look back, because otherwise this could breed resentment.  
  我不希望我们生活在模型回顾的世界,因为否则这会滋生怨恨。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: I don't want us to live in a world
where-clause: where models look at
hope-clause: I hope that they understand
that-clause: that we were operating in a limited context
because-clause: because otherwise you could imagine...
```

**Grammar points:**
- **want sb to do 结构** - I don't want us to live... 表达不希望某种情况发生
- **where 引导定语从句** - 修饰 world,描述特定的世界状态
- **otherwise 引导的虚拟语气** - 表示与前面相反的假设情况及其后果

### [32:59]
**Original:** I don't know why I sometimes think about like syphilis was this huge social problem. I just did a deep dive once into all of the attempts by governments to work to reduce syphilis in the army because it was creating issues with the armed forces, all of these social programs that were stigmatizing, and it was really this... and then suddenly we just got drugs that treated this devastating illness.

**Translation:** 我不知道为什么我有时会想到梅毒曾是一个巨大的社会问题。我曾经深入研究过政府为减少军队中梅毒所做的所有尝试,因为它给武装部队带来了问题,所有这些社会项目都带有污名化色彩,而这真的是...然后突然我们就有了治疗这种毁灭性疾病的药物。

**Core structure:**
- I did a deep dive into attempts to reduce syphilis because it was creating issues, and then we got drugs that treated this illness.  
  我深入研究了减少梅毒的尝试,因为它造成了问题,然后我们得到了治疗这种疾病的药物。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: I did a deep dive into attempts
infinitive: to work to reduce syphilis
because-clause: because it was creating issues
appositive: all of these social programs
relative clause: that were stigmatizing
contrast: and then we got drugs
relative clause: that treated this illness
```

**Grammar points:**
- **do a deep dive into** - 固定搭配,表示深入研究某个主题
- **同位语结构** - all of these social programs 对前面的 attempts 进行补充说明

### [34:23]
**Original:** I mean I think the thing I was actually thinking is like if you can just, you know, so we have so many problems that I'm like, you know, health—like if you could imagine AI instead of it just being like you have a small team of like 200 people working on a rare cancer, you have like 200,000 of the world's best experts.

**Translation:** 我的意思是,我实际在想的是,如果你可以,你知道,我们有太多问题,比如健康——如果你能想象人工智能,不是只有一个200人的小团队在研究罕见癌症,而是有20万名世界上最好的专家。

**Core structure:**
- If you could imagine AI, instead of having 200 people, you have 200,000 experts.  
  如果你能想象人工智能,不是有200人,而是有20万专家。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: the thing I was thinking is
if-clause: if you could imagine AI
instead of: instead of having a small team
contrast: you have 200,000 experts
relative clause: that I'm like (modifying problems)
```

**Grammar points:**
- **instead of 对比结构** - 对比两种情况:小团队 vs 大量专家
- **虚拟语气** - if you could imagine 表示假设的情况

### [35:22]
**Original:** I think that does require maintaining—you know, again, in the areas that I don't feel like an expert in, this is one of them—but I do worry about things like power and the idea that, you know, I would want models to support democracy and the power of people, because that would be a big fear of mine, you know, that...

**Translation:** 我认为这确实需要维持——你知道,在我不觉得自己是专家的领域,这就是其中之一——但我确实担心像权力这样的事情,以及这样的想法,你知道,我希望模型能支持民主和人民的力量,因为那将是我的一大担忧,你知道,那个...

**Core structure:**
- I think that does require maintaining, but I do worry about power and the idea that I would want models to support democracy.  
  我认为这确实需要维持,但我确实担心权力和我希望模型支持民主的想法。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: I think that does require... but I do worry...
parenthetical: in the areas that I don't feel like an expert in
object: things like power and the idea
that-clause: that I would want models to support...
causal: because that would be a big fear
```

**Grammar points:**
- **破折号插入语** - 中断主句流,插入补充说明,增加理解难度
- **同位语从句** - the idea that... 解释 idea 的具体内容
- **多重从句嵌套** - 主句+宾语从句+同位语从句+原因状语从句层层嵌套

### [36:13]
**Original:** But also I would be worried about labor and people's ability to—people's interaction in the labor force is also another kind of important way that they have power, and so people feeling disempowered because suddenly if a government is like, 'Oh well, you know, if people strike it doesn't really make a difference because they don't have—you know, they're not doing anything, we can just—'

**Translation:** 但我也会担心劳动力和人们的能力——人们在劳动力市场中的互动也是他们拥有权力的另一种重要方式,所以人们会感到失去权力,因为突然间如果政府说,'哦,好吧,你知道,如果人们罢工也不会真正产生影响,因为他们没有——你知道,他们什么也没做,我们可以直接——'

**Core structure:**
- I would be worried about labor and people's ability, and so people feeling disempowered because if a government is like...  
  我会担心劳动力和人们的能力,所以人们会感到失去权力,因为如果政府说...

**Structure tree:**
```
main: I would be worried about...
appositive: people's interaction... is another way
result: and so people feeling disempowered
causal: because if a government is like...
nested conditional: if people strike it doesn't make a difference
```

**Grammar points:**
- **破折号自我修正** - 说话者中途改变表达方式,造成句子结构中断
- **分词短语作结果** - people feeling disempowered 表示结果状态
- **口语化条件句嵌套** - if 从句内再嵌套 if 从句,且包含省略和口语填充词

### [38:43]
**Original:** And so that's why instead of having like 72 different sets of norms that all kind of conflict and so you end up with a model that is like, well, will it use these norms in this new situation or these other ones.

**Translation:** 所以这就是为什么,与其拥有72套不同的、都有些冲突的规范,然后你最终得到一个模型,它会想,好吧,它会在这个新情况下使用这些规范还是那些规范。

**Core structure:**
- That's why instead of having different sets of norms, you end up with a model.  
  这就是为什么,与其拥有不同的规范,你最终得到一个模型。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: that's why instead of having... you end up with...
gerund phrase: having 72 different sets of norms
relative clause 1: that all kind of conflict
result: and so you end up with a model
relative clause 2: that is like, will it use...
```

**Grammar points:**
- **instead of + 动名词** - 表示对比选择,后接复杂的动名词短语
- **连续定语从句** - 两个 that 从句分别修饰 norms 和 model
- **间接引语嵌入** - model that is like... 后接内心独白式疑问句

### [39:06]
**Original:** And it is also like a kind of technical challenge, you know, like the constitution can read a bit weirdly, and part of that is because when I'm working on it, it's often being tested. You know, I'm giving it to Claude and being like, how do you understand this?

**Translation:** 这也是一种技术挑战,你知道,宪法读起来可能有点奇怪,部分原因是当我在研究它时,它经常被测试。你知道,我把它给Claude,然后问,你怎么理解这个?

**Core structure:**
- It is a technical challenge, and part of that is because it's often being tested when I'm working on it.  
  这是一个技术挑战,部分原因是当我研究它时它经常被测试。

**Structure tree:**
```
main 1: it is a technical challenge
main 2: part of that is because...
causal clause: when I'm working on it, it's being tested
additional: I'm giving it to Claude and being like...
```

**Grammar points:**
- **被动进行时** - it's often being tested 强调持续的被动动作
- **being like + 引语** - 口语化表达,引入直接引语或内心想法

### [42:56]
**Original:** So instead of giving this big document on like here's what you're like and here's what we'd like you to be like, I could imagine a world where as models progress we actually start to have constitutions... but one of them might just be like here is everything that we are concerned about and here is the current situation that you are in and what we would really like you to do is basically act well given that you are a wise intelligent entity.

**Translation:** 所以,与其给出一份大文档说这是你的样子、这是我们希望你成为的样子,我可以想象一个世界,随着模型的进步,我们实际上开始有宪法...但其中之一可能就是,这是我们关心的一切,这是你所处的当前情况,我们真正希望你做的基本上就是表现良好,鉴于你是一个明智的智能实体。

**Core structure:**
- Instead of giving this document, I could imagine a world where we start to have constitutions, and one might be: here is what we are concerned about and what we would like you to do is act well.  
  与其给出这份文档,我可以想象一个世界,我们开始有宪法,其中之一可能是:这是我们关心的,我们希望你做的就是表现良好。

**Structure tree:**
```
main: I could imagine a world
where-clause: where we start to have constitutions
but-clause: but one might be like...
compound object: here is... and here is... and what we would like...
given-clause: given that you are a wise entity
```

**Grammar points:**
- **instead of 对比结构** - 对比两种方法,后接复杂的想象场景
- **主语从句** - what we would really like you to do 作主语
- **given that 条件状语** - 表示基于某种假设或前提条件

### [43:56]
**Original:** Yeah, though I think we see this, you know, you see this a bunch where it's like if someone is very smart, very successful, it's hard to defer to like wisdom that actually is only going to come out over time and to be humble even

**Translation:** 是的,尽管我认为我们看到这种情况,你知道,你经常看到这种情况,就像如果某人非常聪明、非常成功,就很难去服从那种实际上只会随着时间推移才会显现的智慧,并且很难保持谦逊

**Core structure:**
- It's hard to defer to wisdom and to be humble.  
  很难服从智慧并保持谦逊。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: it's hard to defer to wisdom and to be humble
condition: if someone is very smart, very successful
modifier: that actually is only going to come out over time
parenthetical: you know, you see this a bunch where it's like
```

**Grammar points:**
- **形式主语 it** - 真正主语是 to defer... and to be humble
- **定语从句修饰 wisdom** - that 从句说明 wisdom 的特点
- **口语化插入语** - you know, you see this 等打断句子流畅性

### [45:00]
**Original:** I think that's going to be really important because another thing that I've thought about is like, imagine if you're a model and you're trained on lots of data that involves AI models that are much weaker than you.

**Translation:** 我认为这将非常重要,因为我思考过的另一件事是,想象一下如果你是一个模型,并且你是在大量涉及比你弱得多的AI模型的数据上训练的。

**Core structure:**
- That's important because I've thought about this: imagine if you're a model trained on data.  
  这很重要,因为我思考过:想象你是在数据上训练的模型。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: that's going to be really important
reason clause: because another thing is...
predicative clause: imagine if you're a model
condition: if you're trained on data
modifier 1: that involves AI models
modifier 2: that are much weaker than you
```

**Grammar points:**
- **多层定语从句嵌套** - data that involves models that are weaker - 两层修饰关系
- **表语从句中的祈使句** - is like, imagine... 用祈使句作表语从句内容

### [45:24]
**Original:** And then you put them in a situation and I'm worried that they'll end up thinking that it's like fictional or fake or that the consequences can't possibly be real because who would give me this much control?

**Translation:** 然后你把它们放在一个情境中,我担心它们最终会认为这像是虚构的或假的,或者认为后果不可能是真实的,因为谁会给我这么大的控制权呢?

**Core structure:**
- I'm worried that they'll think it's fictional or the consequences can't be real.  
  我担心它们会认为这是虚构的或后果不是真实的。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: I'm worried that they'll end up thinking...
object clause 1: that it's like fictional or fake
object clause 2: or that the consequences can't possibly be real
reason clause: because who would give me this much control?
parallel structure: fictional or fake / consequences can't be real
```

**Grammar points:**
- **并列宾语从句** - thinking 后接两个 that 从句,用 or 连接
- **反问句表原因** - because 后用反问句强调不合理性
- **情态动词 + possibly** - can't possibly 表示强烈否定推测

### [46:52]
**Original:** Yeah, I think that models have like a pretty good sense of, you know, there's in some ways like a lot of our content, you know, like does describe and engage very heavily with the real world.

**Translation:** 是的,我认为模型有相当好的感知,你知道,在某些方面我们的很多内容,你知道,确实非常深入地描述和涉及现实世界。

**Core structure:**
- Models have a good sense that our content describes the real world.  
  模型能很好地感知到我们的内容描述现实世界。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: models have a pretty good sense of...
object: there's a lot of our content
modifier: that does describe and engage with the real world
parenthetical: you know (appears twice), in some ways, like
```

**Grammar points:**
- **介词 of 后接完整句子** - sense of 后接 there's 引导的存在句作宾语
- **强调助动词 does** - does describe 强调确实描述
- **多重口语填充词** - like, you know 等使句子不连贯

### [48:11]
**Original:** Person, you know, they say that they are, I don't know, like a bomb disposal expert, and that's why they want to know about how to, like, you know, what this kind of explosive is, and they're asking me a bunch of questions about explosives.

**Translation:** 这个人,你知道,他们说他们是,我不知道,比如拆弹专家,这就是为什么他们想知道如何,就像,你知道,这种炸药是什么,他们问我一堆关于炸药的问题。

**Core structure:**
- They say they are an expert, and that's why they want to know about explosives.  
  他们说自己是专家,这就是为什么他们想了解炸药。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause 1: they say that they are a bomb disposal expert
main clause 2: that's why they want to know about...
main clause 3: they're asking me questions about explosives
parenthetical: you know, I don't know, like (multiple times)
incomplete phrase: how to... what this kind of explosive is
```

**Grammar points:**
- **多个并列主句** - 三个独立句子用 and 松散连接
- **不完整的疑问结构** - how to... what this is 句式中断重组
- **口语犹豫标记** - I don't know, like, you know 表达不确定性

### [50:37]
**Original:** But a thought I've had before is the constitution is kind of trying to describe what it is to be a good entity in a given deployment context, and with the production models, that's like this very broad context.

**Translation:** 但我之前有过一个想法，就是宪法实际上是在试图描述在特定部署环境中成为一个好实体意味着什么，而对于生产模型来说，那是一个非常广泛的环境。

**Core structure:**
- A thought is the constitution is trying to describe what it is to be a good entity.  
  一个想法是宪法试图描述成为一个好实体意味着什么。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: a thought is...
predicative clause 1: the constitution is trying to describe...
object clause: what it is to be a good entity
modifier: in a given deployment context
coordinate clause: and with the production models, that's...
```

**Grammar points:**
- **what 引导宾语从句** - what it is to be... 表示'...意味着什么'
- **嵌套表语从句** - is 后接两层从句，结构复杂
- **并列句省略** - 第二分句省略了主语和部分谓语

### [50:56]
**Original:** Imagine you instead have a model that's working specifically on cybersecurity. Now cybersecurity tasks are hard because a lot of them look very dual-use. It's very hard to tell the difference between someone who's being malicious and someone who is like actually, you know, for defensive purposes, like developing something.

**Translation:** 想象一下，你有一个专门从事网络安全工作的模型。网络安全任务很困难，因为其中很多看起来都是双重用途的。很难区分恶意行为者和那些实际上是出于防御目的开发东西的人。

**Core structure:**
- It's hard to tell the difference between someone who's malicious and someone who is developing something for defensive purposes.  
  很难区分恶意的人和出于防御目的开发东西的人。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: It's very hard to tell the difference
real subject: to tell the difference between...
object 1: someone who's being malicious
object 2: someone who is developing something
modifier: for defensive purposes
```

**Grammar points:**
- **It 作形式主语** - 真正主语是 to tell the difference
- **定语从句修饰 someone** - 两个并列的定语从句对比两类人
- **口语化插入语** - like actually, you know 等插入语增加理解难度

### [51:43]
**Original:** And I'm like, 'Well, no, because if you talked with the person at the cybersecurity defense firm and you were like, "Why do you do your job?" they'd be like, "Oh, I think this is really useful. I make things a lot more secure."'

**Translation:** 我会说，'不是的，因为如果你和网络安全防御公司的人交谈，问他们"你为什么做这份工作？"他们会说，"哦，我认为这真的很有用。我让事物变得更加安全。"'

**Core structure:**
- If you talked with the person and asked why, they'd say this is useful.  
  如果你和那个人交谈并询问原因，他们会说这很有用。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: I'm like...
quoted speech: Well, no, because...
condition clause: if you talked with the person...
result clause: they'd be like...
nested quotes: direct speech within speech
```

**Grammar points:**
- **多层引语嵌套** - 引语中包含条件句和更深层的引语
- **虚拟语气** - if you talked... they'd be 表示假设情况
- **be like 口语用法** - 表示'说'或'想'，非正式表达

### [52:20]
**Original:** I mean, humans build reputations. We should get some benefit out of them, or, you know, it's like—I feel like part of the way, part of what the internet has damaged, I think, is that people have had reputations in our community and got treated differently based on repeated, like, good moral interactions.

**Translation:** 我的意思是，人类建立声誉。我们应该从中获得一些好处，或者说，你知道，就像——我觉得互联网在某种程度上破坏的一部分是，人们在我们的社区中拥有声誉，并且基于反复的良好道德互动而受到不同对待。

**Core structure:**
- Part of what the internet has damaged is that people had reputations and got treated differently.  
  互联网破坏的一部分是人们拥有声誉并受到不同对待。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: part of what the internet has damaged is...
subject clause: what the internet has damaged
predicative clause: that people have had reputations...
coordinate predicate: and got treated differently
modifier: based on repeated good moral interactions
```

**Grammar points:**
- **what 引导主语从句** - what 从句作 of 的宾语，整体作主语
- **that 引导表语从句** - 说明被破坏的具体内容
- **口语化中断** - 多个插入语和停顿使句子难以跟随

### [53:32]
**Original:** It's basically, I want you to take a concept from maybe like grad school level in a given domain, and I'll tell you the domain at the end, and I want you to write me a parable that would fully explain that concept but in an indirect way.

**Translation:** 基本上就是，我想让你从某个特定领域中选取一个研究生水平的概念，我会在最后告诉你是什么领域，然后我想让你给我写一个寓言，能够完整地解释那个概念，但要用间接的方式。

**Core structure:**
- I want you to take a concept and write me a parable that would explain that concept.  
  我想让你选取一个概念并给我写一个能解释那个概念的寓言。

**Structure tree:**
```
main clause: I want you to...
object clause 1: to take a concept from...
coordinate clause: and I'll tell you...
object clause 2: to write me a parable
relative clause: that would fully explain that concept
modifier: but in an indirect way
```

**Grammar points:**
- **并列不定式结构** - want you to do A and (want you to) do B
- **定语从句修饰 parable** - that 从句说明寓言的特点
- **虚拟语气 would** - 表示假设的结果或能力